D&D 3E/3.5 Thoughts of a 3E/4E powergamer on starting to play 5E

[thecasualoblivion]

Were you under the impression that warlocks can have it all? They are a class of hard choices and limited resources.

If I were to take Agonizing Blast, which invocation should I ditch? Devil's Sight? Mask of Many Faces? Or Book of Ancient Secrets? Funny how the choice isn't so easy when it's an actual choice...

BTW, I do have hex. But I don't generally have the option to have it up all the time. I realize whiteroom theory crafting assumes such, but I've found that's not nearly the case at the table.

Warlocks can't have it all, but you do get more invocations as you level. One invocation(and waiting a little longer for one of the ones you currently have) is a very small price to pay to be effective at both scouting and combat.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[ChrisCarlson]

Warlocks can't have it all, but you do get more invocations as you level.

Did you miss the part where warlock is only one of the three classes my character is taking? How many invocations do you think I'll get? [Answer: Eventually three. Which will be the Book one.]

One invocation(and waiting a little longer for one of the ones you currently have) is a very small price to pay to be effective at both scouting and combat.

Sacrificing oodles of utility for a minor impact in combat is not what I call a "small price". But that's because, as someone who's played 5e since playtest, I do not weigh DPR the same as in previous editions. It just isn't as important.

 

[ChrisCarlson]

...to be effective at both scouting and combat.

Also, I want to address this.

What makes you think I'm not effective in combat? I never said that. All I said was that I don't deal the damage seen from the paladin or fighter. I never said I wasn't effective. We just don't equate "effective" with "DPR". My character has plenty of useful combat features. Raw DPR just isn't the end-all-be-all in 5e.

 

[ProgBard]

+1
That's the thing, power games often want to kick ass, so the problem is alleviated if you provide them with spacious, kickable buttocks on a semi-regular basis.

5e characters as a baseline are slightly less heroic. The game is swingier, PCs squishier, and generally less super heroic. It lends itself less to regular ass kicking. But that's a problem with the base rules of the game. It'd be easy to house rule some options or variants into the game to allow but buttkicking potential for more heroic campaigns. Some accommodation from the DM just helps.

Back when the party was at 2nd level, houseruling minions with a couple HP apiece turned out to be a great move. Our powergamer's monk gleefully killed a LOT of cultists in a great set-piece battle. Everyone had a blast.

Now that they've hit the second tier, the squishiness is less of an issue, and I just need to make sure that some of the encounters are with suitably low-CR foes in addition to the more potent monsters. Maintaining a nice mix of difficulty levels seems to keep the ass-kickers' itches scratched while making sure the heroes feel challeneged and like they're making real accomplishments. (Sometimes in the same encounter; our last session had most of the party swarmed by a horde of dretches and manes while the paladin faced down the hezrou.)

I think that one of the trade secrets of gamemastery is that, to steal a phrase from poker, you don't play the game - you play the table.

 

[hawkeyefan]

I started this thread to talk about my preparing to play a system that doesn't on the surface fit me very well, as well as my observations of and solutions to that.

So what is your solution? You said very early on that so far you tend to make selfish glass cannons. Are you planning on playing another character type?

 

[ProgBard]

I started this thread to talk about my preparing to play a system that doesn't on the surface fit me very well, as well as my observations of and solutions to that.

Okay, then! So since you're looking for solutions rather than just wanting an ain't-it-awful discussion, here's where I see the rundown:
- Not playing seems to not be an option for you.
- Changing the game is not an option; you're in organized play and constrained by AL rules. Within those constraints, there's no hack to 5e that's going to give you the experience you wish you could be having.
- Changing the other players is not an option; they're going to play in the way that's fun for them, even if some of them do take your lead in making slightly more optimized choices.

That leaves you with two options:
1) Accept not having as good a time as you would under a different ruleset; or
2) Change yourself so you can find a way to have fun in the game as it's designed.

And that's it! That's the crossroads where you stand. You can go and shout at the tide that 5e doesn't validate your chosen style all day and night, and maybe that will make you feel a little better. But it won't change that those are the choices before you.

So, given that - what are you willing to do?

 

[happyhermit]

On an anecdotal basis, in my experience those kids you describe tend to start caring about high DPR after seeing it in play.

On the other hand, anecdotally, I have seen MANY players go in the opposite direction. I remember playing Baldur's gate (PC game) and such back in the day, and at least on one playthrough I got a kick out of optimizing characters, not strategy guide type stuff but still. When I was a teenager, the first thing we did was to figure out the most "badass" combo in the game.

More and more, we realized that in a game like D&D everything is relative and the most important thing is for everyone to have fun. Chasing some illusory higher level of badassery is ultimately meaningless, because the GM can always offer a higher level of challenge.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

So what is your solution? You said very early on that so far you tend to make selfish glass cannons. Are you planning on playing another character type?

Not really. I've built test characters of just about every class and that pretty much described all of them, though some tended to focus more on control than damage for offense like the Wizard. I'm not really impressed with the mechanics for tank-style characters or healer/support in 5E, and I don't play characters who focus on non-combat activities at the expense of combat in any role playing system.

 

[Jester David]

Okay, then! So since you're looking for solutions rather than just wanting an ain't-it-awful discussion, here's where I see the rundown:
- Not playing seems to not be an option for you.
- Changing the game is not an option; you're in organized play and constrained by AL rules. Within those constraints, there's no hack to 5e that's going to give you the experience you wish you could be having.
- Changing the other players is not an option; they're going to play in the way that's fun for them, even if some of them do take your lead in making slightly more optimized choices.

That leaves you with two options:
1) Accept not having as good a time as you would under a different ruleset; or
2) Change yourself so you can find a way to have fun in the game as it's designed.

And that's it! That's the crossroads where you stand. You can go and shout at the tide that 5e doesn't validate your chosen style all day and night, and maybe that will make you feel a little better. But it won't change that those are the choices before you.

So, given that - what are you willing to do?

There is also the third option:
3) Find a group that isn't Organized Play

It doesn't sound like AL is fulfilling his needs, so moving elsewhere (perhaps online to Roll20) seems like a better option.
Or establishing his own group and DMing for them. He's met people in AL, so he can start by inviting them or turning to the Gamers Seeking Gamers forum here.