hawkeyefan
Legend
Wait...how is the monk who does not use weapons not mechanically supported? I have such a character in my campaign, and nothing is missing.
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- Thread starter thecasualoblivion
- Start date
Wait...how is the monk who does not use weapons not mechanically supported? I have such a character in my campaign, and nothing is missing.
The_Furious_Puffin
First Post
Oh the specific issue being discussed here is that at level 1 through 4 or maybe 10 depending on the magic weapons situation you're better off using a shortsword than punching people which seems a bit silly.
Given the player in the hypothetical being discussed wanted to forswear the use of weapons, you may as well let the dudes fists do as much damage as stabbing people imho.
Given the player in the hypothetical being discussed wanted to forswear the use of weapons, you may as well let the dudes fists do as much damage as stabbing people imho.
Manbearcat
Legend
That is a very good question when a contention is made that a game is about exploration and interaction as much as it is about combat. Especially when the tangible evidence points fairly dramatically in the opposite direction.
Bringing it back to Dungeon World again:
8 Basic Moves. Of those 8, only 3 are about combat. And 1 of those 3 can apply to noncombat as well.
Of the 13 general Special Moves, precisely 0 are about combat.
Rarely if ever will a GM create a World Move that isn't exploration or interaction centered.
Let us take a look at a level 9 Ranger from my current game right quick:
[sblock]Saerie Woodwalker
Level 9 Elven Ranger
Animal Eyes, Wild Hair, Cape, Lithe
Str: 9 (+0)
Dex: 18 (+3)
Con: 15 (+1)
Int: 13 (+1)
Wis: 18 (+3)
Cha: 8 (-1)
HP: 23/23
Armor: 2
Damage: 1d8
Gear (Load 10/20)
Dungeon Rations (21 uses, 4 wt)
Hunter's Bow (near, far, 1 wt)
Bundle of Ammo (3 Ammo, 1 wt)
Covenant of Winter staff (1 wt)
Elven Shortsword (close, precise, 1 wt)
Elven Longknife (hand, precise, 1 wt)
Elven Chainmail (ignores clumsy, 2 armor, 1 wt)
Alignment (Chaotic): Defeat a Tyrant.
Bonds
Otthor is the finest warrior I have ever been graced to fight alongside. His skill inspires me.
The long, hateful memory of the Winter Fey will trouble us in the future, I am sure of it.
Rawr’s stubbornness is going to get us in trouble someday!
I am bound by solemn oath to protect Sadia.
Moves
Elf: When you undertake a perilous journey through the wilderness and you scout ahead, you succeed as if you rolled a 10+.
Bestial Tattoo: Upon graduation into the Summer Court's rank of elite rangers, a magical tattoo laden with primal magic, is inscribed onto the back of the few newly graduated. I was the only member of my class to survive the trials. I can now speak with and understand animals.
Amulet of Sun’s Protection: The cold don’t hurt. Much. Take + 1 to Defy cold-related Danger.
Hunt and Track (Wis): When you follow a trail of clues left behind by passing creatures, roll+WIS.
✴ 7-9: you follow the creature’s trail until there’s a significant change in its direction or mode of travel.
✴ 10+: you also choose one of the following: a) Gain a useful bit of information about your quarry or b) determine what caused the trail to end
Called Shot: When you attack a defenseless or surprised enemy at range, you can choose to deal your damage or name your target and roll+DEX.
Head
✴ 7-9: They do nothing but stand and drool for a few moments.
✴ 10+: As 7–9, plus your damage
Arms
✴ 7-9: They drop anything they’re holding.
✴ 10+: As 7-9, plus your damage
Legs
✴ 7-9: They’re hobbled and slow moving.
✴ 10+: As 7-9, plus your damage
Camouflage: When you keep still in natural surroundings, enemies never spot you until you make a movement.
Blot Out the Sun: When you volley you may spend extra ammo before rolling. For each point of ammo spent you may choose an extra target. Roll once and apply damage to all targets.
Decades of Experience: Being decades old, you have a wealth of experience. When a character comes to you for advice and you tell them what you think is best, they take +1 forward when following your advice and you mark xp if they do.
Constant Vigilance: You can always roll to stay sharp, even if you are asleep, distracted, or someone else is on watch. If someone else is on watch, you both roll. Only the better result applies.
Animal Companion: You have a supernatural connection with a loyal animal. You can’t talk to it per se but it always acts as you wish it to. Name your animal companion and choose a species:
Rawr
Large Grizzly Bear
Quality +2, Loyalty +3
Damage d8+1 (forceful, messy), HP 16, Armor 1, Load 4
Tags:
* Vicious (+1 damage and messy)
* Warrior (increase damage die)
Moves:
* Threaten and intimidate
* Trample, break, and wreck stuff
Instinct: Make mischief
Cost: Comfort (cozy quarters, warmth, plenty of food)
Animal Spirit (Lucky): Name and describe the special animal spirit to whom you have bonded; Lucky. When you summon this animal spirit in the wilderness, roll +Wis. On a 10+, choose three. On a 7-9, choose one.
* Your spirit is cunning and adds +1 when you discern realities.
* Your spirit is your hunting partner and adds +1 when you Hunt and Track.
* Your spirit moralizes you; add + 1d4 when you are healed.
* Your spirit protects you; it adds +1 armor.
* Your spirit loves a good game of fetch. Following combat, your animal spirit always locates 1 expended ammo (add this back to your total).
Magnificent Specimen * 2: Each time you take this move (up to twice), either increase your animal companion’s Quality by +1 (max +3) or increase both its armor by +1 and its max HP by +4.
Special Trick (Elemental Mastery – Druid): Choose a move from another class. So long as you are working with your animal companion you have access to that move:
Elemental Mastery: When you call on the primal spirits of fire, water, earth or air to perform a task for you roll +Wis.
✴ On a 10+ choose two.
✴ On a 7–9 choose one.
✴ On a miss, some catastrophe occurs as a result of your calling.
- The effect you desire comes to pass
- You avoid paying nature’s price
- You retain control
Dire Wolf Pack
3 Large Wolves
Quality +1, Loyalty +1
Damage d6 (forceful), HP 12, Armor 1, Load 7
Tags:
* Hunt-wise: They know all about hunting. Roll +Quality to Spout Lore about it on your behalf.
* Organized: They make and follow plans well, and work well in a group. Once they agree to a plan, you do not need to Order Followers as long as the plan doesn’t go south.
* Self-sufficient: They can live off the land and roll +Quality to Forage.
Moves:
* Follow quarry by tracks and spoor
* Encircle the prey
Instinct: Menace the weak
Cost: Dominance. Deference to the pack by those that come in contact with it. The higher their Quality, the more irrelevant the strength of the opposition becomes.
Covenant of Winter: When you call upon the elemental forces of winter, roll +Con. On a 10+, choose 2. On a 7-9, you pay winter's price and choose 1.
* Rend with ice and sleet.
* Repel with gale-force winds.
* Blot out the sun with snow.[/sblock]
I would hope that a brief perusal of that character reveals that the majority of its breadth is about noncombat resolution rather than combat.
And while Dungeon World combat is abstract, it isn't tactically shallow. So that isn't an answer to the rules text devotion to combat disparity.
An intersting way of breaking tings down, thanks
You're welcome
hawkeyefan
Legend
I suppose you could. It's a small difference in damage. Of course, the fact that it's a small difference is just as effective an argument against allowing it. But if the table felt it was best, then great, that group should go for it.
But I think that players' choices should carry consequences, wether those choices are made for game reasons or story reasons. So if a fighter decides that he's an expert at dueling, and opts for that fighting style, I'm not going to also grant him the protection fighting style. He's made his choice, and the mechanics support that.
I think if you start making exceptions for story based decisions, then it might start to cause issues. There may be no mechanical advantage to that player's decision for his monk not to use weapons, but the decision is not about mechanics. It's about his character. And the player's decision actually kind of fits with the monk's, so that's pretty cool. Can the player remain as devoted to the concept as the monk?
I suppose some groups might require mechanical incentive to create character concepts, traits, or flaws. If so then maybe it's something to consider.
The_Furious_Puffin
First Post
Your point about the fighter making a choice between options that both help him (vs the monk choosing between an option that is just not as good as the other option) makes the point.
Why punish the monk for making a purely RP choice? The fighter gets to choose between two options that both do cool things. Let the monk make a meaningful decision between two cool things.
Lack of meaningful decisions is the problem.
Why punish the monk for making a purely RP choice? The fighter gets to choose between two options that both do cool things. Let the monk make a meaningful decision between two cool things.
Lack of meaningful decisions is the problem.
Sacrosanct
Legend
Meaningful to you. That's the problems with things like this, it's all subjective. There is no way a game is going to mechanically support every concept every player can ever come up with on an completely equal mechanical basis. Even if it could, what is meaningful to one person, is not relevant to another.
That's why we have a DM. And 5e is very explicit in telling people, "if something you want isn't covered, talk with your DM."
So I don't see why these complaints still persist. You've been give a solution. Use it.
Bacon Bits
Legend
Because we all know that a game of pretend is apt to break down when combat is involved:
"I shot you!"
"No you didn't!"
"Yes I did. I have magic arrows of fiend killing."
"Well they don't work because my guy's armor is extra strong."
"That's not fair! I'm specially trained in fiend killing! And arrows!"
"Well they don't work."
Dice and mechanics are the impartial judge when the DM's judgement alone should not be trusted.
The_Furious_Puffin
First Post
Two observations:
A) I'm not sure that stripped of context "Do less damage with restriction to one damage type vs do more damage with a choice of damage types" is a meaningful choice to anyone. Conversely 'help allies defenses allies or deal more damage myself' has a significant impact on characterization and is a significant decision.
B) In a game with a 'monk' class who does unarmed combat 'unarmed combatant' is a well within expected norms. I mean, 'batman' or 'space marine' wouldn't be - those are different genres and the fact that the game does support batman and doesn't really support space marine is what it is. But 'unarmed dude who fights like bruce lee!' is right in the wheelhouse.
That doesn't mean that combat rules need 10-20 times more word count than non combat rules though - it's a question of relative focus. In 5E D&D, the combat rules have overwhelmingly the most focus. There is more pages dedicated to that than anything else across the PHB/DMG/MM. It doesn't need to be like that necessarily tyough. GUMSHOE is a game that has dice and mechanics for combat, and spends less than half of its total word count on combat.
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Imaro
Legend
I'm curious... can he be disarmed? Can someone request he leave his fists at the door when entering somewhere? In other words when I increase his fists to the equivalent of a weapon... will they also have all the drawbacks of an actual weapon... or have I given him a boost which is unfair to those who have to use actual weapons to gain that damage but also suffer the drawbacks of it being an actual weapon?
EDIT: In other words there are some tangible benefits to being "unarmed" but capable of causing significant damage...that would also have to be balanced. I think so far as magic items are concerned... I would just create enchanted knuckle dusters, or hand and feet wraps as opposed to just giving him the bonus, since the enhancement then retains the inherent advantages and disadvantages of being an actual item.
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hawkeyefan
Legend
But those are different types of decisions.
Here's a better example of a RP based decision. A fighter has a short sword that belonged to his father, who was killed by a group of villains. The fighter hunts down the villains and uses the short sword to gain his revenge.
Now, the fighter has his choice of pretty much any weapon in the game...so how about we just let this short sword do 1d12 damage rather than 1d6? Would this be something you would agree to?
I don't see any player who chooses something like that as a case of them being "punished". The term implies a min/max mindset that I don't adhere to.
And I would also argue that his decision to take a weapon that does less damage is exactly what makes the choice meaningful. If both sides of an equation are balanced, then the choice is merely one of aesthetics, no? In this case, the player is choosing what he feels is a powerful story element at the cost of mechanical optimization. I don't see how such a decision could be described as anything but meaningful.
