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D&D 3E/3.5 Thoughts of a 3E/4E powergamer on starting to play 5E

Calling an edition's combat boring, trivial and over too fast (without a qualifier) isn't edition warring...
There isn't an anti-5e edition war that I've noticed. There are criticisms of the new edition (as always) and many of them are questionable or unfounded (ditto) - and deserving of a spirited defense - or resolvable (and warranting some discussion of how to fix them - which, in spite of thecasualoblivion's stated aim, is, I think, fair game on some of the topics we're visiting). Few of those criticisms sink to the level of the edition war, and, even then, they aren't picked up and repeated ad nauseum.

And, like I told thecasualoblivion - if you find it trivial and boring, it can't very well be over /too fast/, now can it? ;)

(Actually, 'trivial' isn't even that unfair. Some 'easy' combats are to be expected in a 6-8 encounter day, they still consume (some) resources, so add up to something less trivial, though.)

but my post in response to this for some reason could be construed as edition warring??
It could have been pulled right off the front lines c2009.

I'm referring to the number of monsters. On average, a 4E encounter will feature more monsters than a 5E encounter.
Sure. Supports the 'faster combat' goal. Fewer monsters, less overhead for the DM, shorter DM/monster turns, manageable attrition vs the PCs, Bounded Accuracy favors the numerically superior side, PC victory likely.

I found the guidelines for attack bonuses, average damage per attack, and defenses to be perfectly workable in 4E. They were simple and effective. There are guidelines that exist in 5E, but I find them harder to use. Maybe they'll become easier once I understand them better,
Most likely. I used the builder or just eyeballed it in 4e. I wing it in 5e.

but I don't go for a lot of fudging or "winging it". I want to make a monster out of numbers and stick to what I make, and only fudge when I absolutely need to.
It's just one way to cope. One I like, but it's not for everyone. If you do get a handle on the 5e 'monster math' sharing the experience would be cool.

Oh, I would guess the system is working as intended in that regard. I just don't like how it seems to be very swingy in that regard.
It does add potential drama. A large group of enemies can be a credible threat, even though you have a limited resource that can trivially annihilate them.

As for "behind the scenes", I mean actually building monsters and using the system outlined in the DMG for monster creation.
OK, so 'away from the table' preparation.

I really like to homebrew and create my own monsters, and I really liked 4E's system for doing it. I'm trying to get used to 5E's, but I'm not too fond of the approach used so far. I got 4E's to work for me, and maybe I'll get 5E's to also work, and I just haven't managed it yet. I am hopeful that I'll get there...
OK, sounds fair. You can always post here with specific questions or ideas. Make for some constructive threads. :)

Like I said, they do take the late-era 4E approach to solos of "giving monsters more actions per round, outside their turn". I don't think the implementation is quite enough to get me what I want, but it's workable, and a good starting point. Still, the problem with legendary actions is they aren't particularly dynamic, and the ones written in the book can be kind of hit-or-miss. Lair actions are more what I'm looking for, because I like how they are themed as the creature turning the environment against the PCs, and a legendary creature in its lair can be a credible threat, and I could work with that. I'm just not quite sure it's appropriate for the level range of PCs I currently have though, because legendary creatures with lair actions tend to be >= CR 10 (notable exception is the Unicorn, but I don't think that's quite what I'm going for either).
I think it's perfectly appropriate to have 'Legendary' monsters at low level, just like it was fine to have low-level 'solos.' Maybe the name is misleading that way, but it's also evocative. ;) You could take Lair Actions out of the Lair, too, in some cases, I'm sure. Make them Environment Actions, maybe?
 

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There isn't an anti-5e edition war that I've noticed. There are criticisms of the new edition (as always) and many of them are questionable or unfounded (ditto) - and deserving of a spirited defense - or resolvable (and warranting some discussion of how to fix them - which, in spite of thecasualoblivion's stated aim, is, I think, fair game on some of the topics we're visiting). Few of those criticisms sink to the level of the edition war, and, even then, they aren't picked up and repeated ad nauseum.

Anti-5e edition war... are you serious? More and more it seems it's not edition war rhetoric/language/etc. (irregardless of edition) you're against... it's criticism of 4e... like I suspected from the beginning. The problem is you don't get to proclaim one edition off limits for criticism but happily partake in the criticism of another it's hypocritical.



It could have been pulled right off the front lines c2009.

And? Doesn't mean it's not true. Especially since even some 4e fans felt that way about 4e combats and the math was rejiggered in the game to try and fix it. Tony the only difference you seem capable of coming up with it... it's 4e... your bias is really starting to show here...
 




Sorry for the devil's advocacy here, yes it is possible that maybe the game can met oblivion's preferences. But that is DM dependent, and beggars can be choosers, more so if you are stuck as a DM. You need a very good like-minded DM to get what you want with 5e, but you only need a mediocre/below average DM that runs the right system to get something even closer if not exactly what you want with other editions.
You can do that in 5e too, but he can't (apparently). His experience is not universal
 

So you and [MENTION=996]Tony Vargas[/MENTION] are okay with this...



Calling an edition's combat boring, trivial or over too fast (without a qualifier) isn't edition warring... but my post in response to this for some reason could be construed as edition warring?? The only difference I'm seeing is the edition. But hey, I'm open minded could one of you all explain to me,outside of the specific edition(s) being talked about... what's the difference? If you can't... then can you see where my thought that... it's only edition warring if you don't like 4e for some people... comes from
I don't have an issue with what he said or you said, I just thought it might be helpful you you understood that your intent was misconstrued by more than one person. That's all.
 

You can do that in 5e too, but he can't (apparently). His experience is not universal

How? I thought he wanted reliable player empowerment, good customization and good and interesting combat, how can he get that out of the box or with a kinda bad, just not completely bad DM? / Or how can I get my criminally dumb all-utility sorcerer that commands invisible servants, has a familiar, can hide between dimensions to rest or spy, fights with a spear and is completely-absolutely not a monster not even weird looking, with anybody but a bad DM and without having to request special treatment? -3e gives me that out of the box-
 

I was questioning your flimsy justification... not whether it existed or not.
You wanted to the know the difference between you re-hashing edition war rhetoric, and thecasualoblivion criticizing 5e. That's the difference, there was no edition war against 5e for him to re-hash, nor is what he (and Zardnaar, Corpsetaker and the very few other oddly determined critics of 5e hanging out here) has had to say tantamount to starting such a war.

How? I thought he wanted reliable player empowerment, good customization and good and interesting combat, how can he get that out of the box or with a kinda bad, just not completely bad DM?
AL is a special case in that it is comparable to 'out of the box' and does restrict DMs somewhat. More broadly, 5e does try to cater to many styles, including those each past edition may be perceived to do particularly well - the ball is in the DM's court to implement such a style, the player who wants something quite specific from 5e will have to look for a specific sort of DM, or DM, himself. But 5e is in essence meeting him half way. Playing in AL will get the AL experience more than the 5e experience, FWIW.

Personally, I don't think that going back to a specific edition is the guaranteed playstyle-support it's made out to be, either. I wouldn't think that thecasualoblivion would be particularly happier in dave2008's 4e game than in his 5e game - since he did make a point of adapting /each/ of them to a personal style of his own, for instance. Similarly, if he came to my 4e table (yeah, I still run 4e as well as 5e, though I've taken a break this month), he'd probably be appalled at how off-the-cuff and '5e style' I run things, and how my 5-8 player party manages to lack both leaders and defenders even when everyone shows (his Pally would be most welcome, though, I'm sure). ;P

Or how can I get my criminally dumb all-utility sorcerer that commands invisible servants, has a familiar, can hide between dimensions to rest or spy, fights with a spear and is completely-absolutely not a monster not even weird looking, with anybody but a bad DM and without having to request special treatment? -3e gives me that out of the box-
3e gives you CoDzilla out the box, too. ;P
Seriously, though, 'not even weird looking' is just so much re-skinning, no? Spear proficiency could come with a tweaked background, and sticking to utility is a matter of spell & metamagic choice - not optimal choices, obviously, but choices. You could get a character like that in a campaign where the DM was willing to work with you. You couldn't guarantee it 'out the box' or irrespective of campaign, but it's hardly an impossibility. 5e's open to it.
 

How? I thought he wanted reliable player empowerment, good customization and good and interesting combat, how can he get that out of the box or with a kinda bad, just not completely bad DM?

I just said he couldn't. But others can have reliable player empowerment, good customization, and good and interesting combat in 5e. Those concepts are relative, not concrete/absolute.

/ Or how can I get my criminally dumb all-utility sorcerer that commands invisible servants, has a familiar, can hide between dimensions to rest or spy, fights with a spear and is completely-absolutely not a monster not even weird looking, with anybody but a bad DM and without having to request special treatment? -3e gives me that out of the box-

I'm sorry I have know idea what your talking about. Also, I've only played 1e, 4e, and 5e.
 

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