Thoughts on a Barbarian Economy

[Water Bob]

Some of you know that I'm running a Conan RPG game, focussing on a clan of Cimmerian Barbarians.

I've been wondering how the economic system works. First off, a few notes about the clan:

1. They're a trading clan. They're known for their steel weapons, and the clan trades with other clans for what it needs. This trade isn't making anybody rich--these are still Cimmerians living in little round hovels, most with rock walls and thatched roofs. But, the clan has made enough over the last couple of decades that they haven't needed to raid their neighbors for the things they need.

2. The clan is remote, located in the northern Cimmerian, centrally located in the foothills of the Eiglophian Mountains, on the south side of the Vanir-Aesir border. So, trade is usually limited to that with other Cimmerian clans, although the clan does have an agreement with an Aesir clan, which provides their main source of iron-ore.

3. Therefore, trade is usually done through barter. The Cimmerians use and understand the value of coins, and they accept them sometimes--especially if the Cimmerians do a lot of trade. But, your average Cimmerian who usually only trades with his clansmen will not accept coin as payment.

4. Cimmerians value practical items. They want things that they can eat--things that will keep them warm. Weapons are prized. Armor is typically not valued high, but helms, shields, and light armor holds the most value. Things like jewelry and non-practical clothing holds little value for a Cimmerian. He's interesting in things that will help him stay alive in the harsh enviornment of his homeland.





What I've been doing is allowing the PCs to roll weekly wealth, when they're in the village and not on an adventure, using the 3.5 Craft rules. You basically make a skill check, and the total of your roll is how many silver pieces the character earned that week.

Instead of silver pieces, I call the wealth "trade units". It's not coin the character it gaining, it's a good pair of winter boots, three rabbit pelts, an iron helm, and a freshly strung hunting bow. Barter system.

So, for example, one of my PCs is a Trapper. So, once a week, when the character is in the village the entire week, the player will roll a Craft Trapping skill check, the result giving the PC some wealth in trade units.

These trade units the character uses to buy supplies and equipment he needs from his kinsmen.





OK, so here's my question....

Given all I've said above, how do you think the economic system works within the single-village clan?

I'm thinking that there is a semi-socialistic set-up. The trapper, for example, goes out and gathers the animals from the traps. Some of these he keeps for himself. Half, he gives to the clan (to feed the non-hunters, like the old lady who makes clothes for people, or the tanner who works with the animals the PC brings him).

This means that, when a weekly wealth check is made, the amount to the PC is reduced by 50% to account for what he has given away to the clan.



What do you guys think of this? Do you have a better idea on how to run wealth in this game? Do you think a Cimmerian clan would operate a different way?

I'm open to ideas as I haven't yet locked this idea down in my game.







EDIT: Population. There are 336 people in the entire clan. 140 live in the village. The rest live in outlying homesteads.

In the village, there are 63 children, 49 warriors, 25 elders, and 2 clansmen in their twilight years.

In the entire clan, there are 151 children, 118 warriors, 60 elders, and 7 clansmen in their twilight years.



Since most of the clansmen trade among themselves, this will give you an idea of the size of the market.

 

[Water Bob]

A related question I'm considering in my game:

Since the PCs are barbarians, living away from civilazation, I've taken the advice given in the equipment sections of several of the Conan RPG books and inflated the prices. The recommendation (as in the Aquilonia sourcebook) is up to 20 times the price listed in the book.

I decided to go with a x5 and x10 modifier. If the PCs sold something to a trader (something they obtained on an adventure), he'd give them the book listed price (in trade units, of course, not silver). When the PCs bought something, I'd use the x5 modifier for common items and the x10 modifier for rare or prized items.

Of course, your players always hit you with a curveball, and one of my PCs is the apprentice smith in the village. So, when he wanted to sell a heavy mace he'd taken from an enemy, and the trader would only give him 3 trade units for it, the player asked what the trader would sell it for. I used my standard x10 modifier for the weapon, telling him 30 trade units.

The player said, "Well, I'll just put it up at the forge and sell it there."




Now, I've got a problem on my hands. I've got to reconcile items the player tries to sell specifically, like the mace, vs. the abstract method of obtaining wealth by rolling once per week on the character's skill.

So, how would you make that call in your game?

What I did, just off the cuff during our game, was tell the player that, due to the population and market, there's a low chance that it will sell quickly. People tend to get weapons that they like and keep them. I figured I'd get some use out of the often neglected 30 sided dice, so I told him the chance, per week, that the mace would sell is 1-in-30.

The player then--this is no lie--it happened last Saturday--picked up the 30 sider, tossed it across the table, and I was stunned when I saw the die land on the "1".

So, I gave the player his 30 trade units and made a note to myself to review how the trade system is going to work.




The question here is: How do you resolve selling loot the PCs capture on the battlefield against the abstract weekly wealth roll, given the conditions I've outlined about my game?

Is there a better way to handle this?

 

[gamerprinter]

I'd go through the equipment list, selecting only those items that belong in your technology/culture, for example a telescope would be a priceless item, as it is technology that Cimmerians do not have, so it falls outside their economic system. Things like appropriate technology weapons, tools, standard items, raw goods and manufactured goods - look at the existing cost by coin (GP/SP) and convert that to your 'trade unit'.

Create a new list of equipment and their costing in trade units so you can have a baseline to work from with your PCs own collected and manufactured goods. Also consider the skill of the individual craftsmen, as some are better skilled/more artistic/uses better material or tools so creates a better widget than somebody else. Crafting reputation should raise the value of products offered by varying craftsman/sellers.

Since you think you need to reinvent the economic cost value of wealth, then do so, and get on with it.

For my Kaidan setting, I've basically had to do the same thing, by converting the standard equipment list by value, converting from gold pieces to volumes of rice. Kaidan, like feudal Japan is a rice based culture, not a gold based on. While the koku defines the amount of rice required to feed a man for 1 year, captures large GP amounts, 1 copper piece is equivalent to 1 bowl of rice. That's my economic system.

 

[Water Bob]

I'd go through the equipment list, selecting only those items that belong in your technology/culture, for example a telescope would be a priceless item, as it is technology that Cimmerians do not have, so it falls outside their economic system. Things like appropriate technology weapons, tools, standard items, raw goods and manufactured goods - look at the existing cost by coin (GP/SP) and convert that to your 'trade unit'.

Create a new list of equipment and their costing in trade units so you can have a baseline to work from with your PCs own collected and manufactured goods.

I'm ahead of you on this part. Since I posted, I've been creating a list of weapons that the smith can make. For example, he can make a standard knife, but he's never seen a Yuetshi knife. From the Cimmerian perspective, the Yuetshi knife is an Exotic weapon.

Since you think you need to reinvent the economic cost value of wealth, then do so, and get on with it.

It is suggested in the core rulebook and at least three other books that feature equipment for the Conan RPG.

I think it makes sense. The idea is for the players to have their characters experience local price differences. If on the frontier, salt is a heck of a lot more expensive than it is deep in the heart of a large, cosmopolitain city.

For my Kaidan setting, I've basically had to do the same thing, by converting the standard equipment list by value, converting from gold pieces to volumes of rice. Kaidan, like feudal Japan is a rice based culture, not a gold based on. While the koku defines the amount of rice required to feed a man for 1 year, captures large GP amounts, 1 copper piece is equivalent to 1 bowl of rice. That's my economic system.

Yeah, in the sourcebook that features the Pictish frontier, the standard is beaver skins, and the value of a beaver skin is variable due to its quality.

I didn't think a "standard" like an amount of rice or a number of beaver skins would be appropriate for a Cimmerian setting, thus the generic "trade unit".

It makes it easy, too. A "trade unit" is basically the same value as one silver piece (the standard in the game--gold is rarely used). Thus, if I want to inlfate a price by x10, and it normally costs 3 sp, then it's easy to quickly figure that the item is worth 30 trade units in Cimmerian barter.

 

[Water Bob]

Here's another related question....

If a character with the weaponsmith craft skill spends the week making a weapon, does he also get to roll for income that week?

Or, are those mutually exclusive rolls?

 

[Gilladian]

On your final question, I would definitely say the two are mutually exclusive. A smith can make nails for the village and get food in return (trade units) OR he can spend his time making a weapon or other item that is super-special and may take weeks or months to "sell" and get LOTSA trade units for it.

Not both.

 

[Water Bob]

On your final question, I would definitely say the two are mutually exclusive. A smith can make nails for the village and get food in return (trade units) OR he can spend his time making a weapon or other item that is super-special and may take weeks or months to "sell" and get LOTSA trade units for it.

Not both.

I see that point, but I was thinking along these lines...

First, no more selling specific items like I did with the Mace during our last game. The weekly throw represents what's sold and what's not.

If that's the case, then, I think the smith should be able to make his weekly check even if he's making a weapon that will take a long time to make--the difference being we'll never sell that weapon other than to say it's part of his weekly take.

Of course, that brings up the question of what to do with battlefield gains that the players want to sell. I think things that will bring big money, even if its over time, will just get the PC a bonus modifier on the throw--say a +2 for every major item.

And, we could say that the modifier can be no higher than the character's Profession skill.



So...

You've got your young Cimmerian that goes out, adventures, and fights, bringing back some tradeables: a shield, a short sword, a dagger, and a waterskin.

The shield and shortsword are major items. Those are worth +2 on the throw each. The dagger and waterskin are not major items, together, they're worth +1 on the throw.

The character has never improved his Profession (Weaponsmith) skill, so he's limited to one item modifer per week (because it's a minimum of one). If he had a 3 ranks in Profession, then he could take the full +5 modifier because he could benefit from 3 items per week).

Since this smith has no ranks in his Profession skill, he'll get +2 on this Wealth check this week, +2 on his Wealth check next week, and +1 on his Wealth check the week after that.

This makes the Profession skill something the player may want to look into getting.

Crafting is about making stuff and that stuff's quality.

Profession is about running a business.

What do you think of that?

 

[fireinthedust]

First: I really like your economic model! Sounds like a well-thought out structure.

Second: to answer your initial question about the village:

I don't think this would work. Small farmsteads would work for it, say 30 people each farm. The farm would be run like a small business, and they need 30 people to get enough food, less would not make enough, more would eat too much. A village might be where the go to trade for things.
Historically this is how it was outside of cities like Rome.
And really, 30 is the size of a big family: parents, kids, and their kids. Plus, y'know, no birth control. Lots of kids and lots of disease, you'll have an average of 30 people to a farm.

Your population of 300+ just seems big, imho, for a simple barter if it's just one community. That many people and there would be different set ups (a blacksmith, leather worker, carpenter, weaver, etc.) and they might start using coins to keep track. It's just big enough.

Also: I don't think the 50% reduction is necessary. Think of it this way: if you take 50% from everyone individually, where is it going? It's not vanishing, it's somewhere; and merely having a socialistic outlook wouldn't make it disappear. You're basically saying what you do for one you do for everyone. Giving away doesn't decrease the total value because it's the total value for the entire Village's amount of work. The money would be the return on that investment, which the entire village would make, not just a few individuals.

Rather, for that setting try having a steady rate of income: everyone pitches in whatever they're going to pitch in, BUT they divide the spoils equally. If you're going to roll, roll once for everyone in the village and that's the average amount for the week: the group got a bad sale.

You could also have a larger lump amount rolled, then divide that among members of the community by shares/rank. A chieftain would have a big share, others would have only one.


But I'm not sure how Robert E Howard devised the Cimmerian social structure. So far Conan's been outside Cimmeria, and only a poem has given a hint.


ALSO: I would think that without constant fighting the tribe would be considered soft, weak, possibly too close to becoming civilized. If it's been decades without raiding, they may be more likely to use coins, as they're no longer a tribe of warriors in the same way. Know what I mean? The whole trap of civilization. Heh, may be getting close to time the group had visits from a sorcerer who wants to trade, then settle nearby...

 

[trancejeremy]

But I'm not sure how Robert E Howard devised the Cimmerian social structure. So far Conan's been outside Cimmeria, and only a poem has given a hint.

Howard pretty much borrowed everything from history - the Cimmerians were more or less Celts (or the view of them during his lifetime), as the name "Conan" pretty much relates. Specifically Gaelic ones, I would say (since he also identified himself that way)

 

[Water Bob]

Historically this is how it was outside of cities like Rome.
And really, 30 is the size of a big family: parents, kids, and their kids. Plus, y'know, no birth control. Lots of kids and lots of disease, you'll have an average of 30 people to a farm.

Using rules from one of the Conan game books, I've determined that the average family size in the clan is 14, and there are 24 families in the clan. That's the 336 total of people in the clan.

Your population of 300+ just seems big, imho, for a simple barter if it's just one community.

There are bigger clans, a few getting in the 600-700-800 person range.

That many people and there would be different set ups (a blacksmith, leather worker, carpenter, weaver, etc.) and they might start using coins to keep track. It's just big enough.

It's established in the game that they don't, though.

Also, remember that there's only 140 in the village itself. The rest are spread out in 9 homesteads (that's an average of 21 people per homestead, which is closer to your guess--the families in the village are smaller on average).

So, at any one time, except around festival time, you're probably dealing with the village of 140 plus one or two families that happen to be in town trading at the time.

Let's not forget that a large percentage of the population are children, too, which means barter is even more feasible.

In the village, you've got 74 adults, not counting the 2 elders, which is a lot less than the 300+ you're considering.

Also: I don't think the 50% reduction is necessary.

I agree. I was thinking about this, and I think the price inflation at x5, x10, or maybe more, is plenty of penalty that will keep them poverty stricken as Cimmerian tribes must be.

But I'm not sure how Robert E Howard devised the Cimmerian social structure. So far Conan's been outside Cimmeria, and only a poem has given a hint.

Yeah, nobody really knows much about what Howard intended concerning the Cimmerians. Most of what we have to go on is stuff from pastiches, and even those don't agree.

I read every story that had to do with Cimmerians, and I have a good feel for them--at least from the pastiches. But, in the end, the Cimmerians are my version not necessarily anybody elses.

ALSO: I would think that without constant fighting the tribe would be considered soft, weak, possibly too close to becoming civilized.

Oh, they're fighting. The PC's clan won its independence from another clan about 20 years ago, and now the two clans have a Blood Fued. They're just not raiding like they used to.

Good point about them getting "soft" though. I'm actually setting up the PC clan to look that way from an even more barbaric Cimmerian clan that looks down upon them with disdain.