Thoughts on spell DC based on level rather than INT bonus

[Plane Sailing]

I was thinking about changing the way that spellcaster DC's are calculated, from the philosophical point of view that I would like a high level wizards spells to be harder to resist because of his personal magical puissance, not just because "the formula" expects him to have more magic items which will include INT boosting items.

The mechanics

Instead of the current method, the DC for a spell is 10 + spell level + half caster level.

The INT bonus is not used, and half caster level is used instead. This means that the power of casters is more directly linked to their level (using INT only indirectly links them). It also reduces variation at 1st level and other levels.

e.g with this method the lowest DC (1st level caster & cantrip) = DC 10, DC 11 for 1st level spells.
Highest DC (20th level caster, 9th level spell) = DC 29

This contrasts with the existing system where 1st level casters could have from DC 11 to DC 15 for their 1st level spells, more if they somehow have an attribute boosting item. The maximum, for a 20th level caster with an INT of 18 + 5 (level increases) +5 (inherent bonuses from wishes) +6 (headband of intellect) has INT 34, and thus has +12 on all spell DC's. However, he could have an 18 INT and just have the same bonus as a 1st level character. n.b. Races with an INT bonus will get even higher DC's.

I think the existing system puts too much focus on an attribute, and not enough on the caster. It also allows for much more variability and considerably more potential for abuse.

My proposed system may not hold together under the Epic rules, but I'm completely uninterested in them anyway, so I've disregarded completely the issue of being above 20th level.

This would apply for all caster types, removing the attribute effect on DC's whether they are arcane or divine.

Cheers

 

[Felix]

I can see your argument, and have thought about it myself on a few occasions. The counter-argument is, of course, those with a higher INT will be able to entwine the forces of magic (excuse the Wheel of Time allusion) in such a way that it is harder to resist.

The power of casters should be tied down to their level, instead of the inherent ability of a PC? One could debate this; tieing the DC to the level with no influence from the Wizard's mind (where the ability to control magic comes from) would yeild a crop of cookie cutter wizards, all with the same spell DC's.

What are the possible components of spell DC, and what do they represent?

1. Spell Level - represents the force of magic and the inherent power of the spell. Higher spell levels (and thus higher DC's) are only possible through leveling a character.

2. Caster Level - through experience the wizard has learned how to craft his magic making it harder to resist his influence. Higher DC's are only possible through leveling a character.

3. INT - shows the subtlety and craftiness of the wizard's mind. Genious level wizards are able to cast low level spells with a cunning design in the way the magic invades the target's mind. Higher DC's are possible through inherent bonuses, items and EXP-draining wishes.

4. 10+ this is a natural. I love it. Sacred Cow.

It seems to me that spell level and caster level are redundant - they both reflect the level of the wizard, and only that. I think personal magical puissance shouldn't be dertemined merely by the level - the PC's themselves don't know what levels are, they just get more powerful.

Speaking of puissance, all 12th level wizards would have the same amount of it, none being able to cast harder to resist spells than the rest of them.

I can understand where the disgust for INT-jacking comes from, but would it be better for a DM to amputate the player's ability to make his PC more powerful? Better to disallow, or make unavailable, items that boost INT, I think.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Hi Felix, thanks for the feedback!

INT boosting items would still be valuable for the additional bonus spells though, not to mention skill points and INT based skill bonuses, so I don't think it is too out of kilter.

I know that there is an argument that the fact that a 5th level wizard can cast a 3rd level spell and the 1st level wizard which defines the power difference between the two.

I just don't like the massive inflation which high INT provides, and the concommittant INT-pumping which characters are prone to now (although it is akin to the attribute pumping of all sorts which 3e introduced and now to some extent relies upon )

I suppose what I'm interested in considering here is, given my philosophical argument (INT doesn't affect spell DC's), is there any bad side-effects of my proposed alteration to the rules?

The only one that I can see at the moment is that a low level mage is typically going to be less effective than at present (weaker spell DCs), but that general weakening is likely to continue all the way up the chain... I don't think it will be too bad, and will curb some potential excesses.

Cheers

 

[Victim]

Is a mage's INT pumping any worse than a tank fighter's desire to boost strength and con, etc?

Cloaks of Resistance might become more expensive, since save DCs will be lower.

 

[Xarlen]

I heard SOMEWHERE that the pumping of int via items does not raise skill point production.

 

[Felix]

Xarlen - I think you need to have a Headband, or whatever, worn for more than half of the level to get the extra skill points from the added INT. Sorry, can't cite anything.

Plane Sailing - if a high INT becomes useless for wizards, there won't be a wizard PC with an INT higher than 19. It just won't be worth it. Better to throw points into CON or DEX. It's just like Victim said. While lacking a tangable mechanic effect, this will be a shame IMHO. The Fighter will get stronger, the rogue more dexterious, the cleric wiser, and the bard more charismatic. The Fighter will hit harder in melee, the rogue's skills are almost all DEX based and his AC gets better, the cleric has higher Will saves, and bard skills are CHA-dependent.

But there's no reason for a wizard to be really smart. Will you appeal to his skill selection? Sure, he could know a lot about things, or be a great Alchemist, but that's about it; limited application in gameplay.

If DC=10+1/2 caster level+spell level were applied accross the board, no wizard with INT > 19, no cleric with WIS > 19, no Sorc with CHA > 19, no bard with CHA > 16, and so on.

I couldn't put a price on it, but I want to play in a world where there are exceptional PCs, and I have the opportunity to (as well as reap the rewards of) become exceptional myself.

 

[GuardianLurker]

Why not make it
10+Spell Level+(Spellcraft Bonus/2)?

The benefit is that you still gain some (but not a lot) of benefit from a higher int directly, plus it ties uses the actual skill of the wizard.

If you use this across the board, you'll need use the appropriate spell stat for Spellcraft, instead of just int.

Edit:
This would make the first level DCs range anywhere from 13 to 15, and put the maximum for a 20th at 35. (Assuming a +10 int bonus.)

 

[dvvega]

Xarlen: what you heard was semi-correct. It won't retroactively grant you skill points. So gain 6 INT at 4th level, you won't suddenly get 21 skill points (12 at 1st +3 at 2nd, 3rd, 4th). However if you wear the item for most of the time during a level gain, it does count for your new level. So get to 5th level while wearing the item for most of 4th level, you get the +3 skill points.

Others: The Spell Focus feats will become even more powerful if you use Level. In addition, feats like Spell Casting Prodigy suddenly lose their benefit (aside from bonus spells).

Idea 1:
My personal opinion would be that INT is only part of the equation. Intelligence would dictate how well you know the spell, and how much you can learn etc. Your experience level would dictate how much training and experience in the casting of spells you have. Both of them should be used for determination of saves.

How about giving a +1 bonus at each new spell level as opposed to class level however. Essentially this is level/2 until you get 9th level spells (max of +9 not +10).

Then you'd look at 10+level/2+INT. Note that no spell level is in this calculation since the spell's power is dictated by caster level and his/her knowledge of the spell. If you added spell level it would be just too high.

Idea 2:
Make a spellcraft check to determine the DC of the spell. How well do you cast the spell at that moment? GuardianLurker has the gist of this system.

 

[thullgrim]

There might be a compromise in here somewhere, how about 10+ 1/2 caster level + Int. This ties DC to both the power of the caster and his Int. Base DC at 20th level will be in the range of 28-32 I think though it depends on the Items one gives out. At 20th level with a +10 stat bonus yields a base 30 DC only one above what originally postulated. The beauty of this is that it still makes Int a valuable stat for mages in more than one way. Further, it incorporates the power of the Wizard.

 

[thullgrim]

upon further thought, if I wanted to do away with Int as a factor in DC I would go 10+spell caster level. Do away with spell level in the equation.