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<blockquote data-quote="Charlaquin" data-source="post: 9590819" data-attributes="member: 6779196">Right, but you have to take the condition in context with its sources. The invisible condition doesn’t say it makes you impossible to see, but it might not need to, if the source of the condition makes you impossible to see (without a more specific rule like truesight allowing it). So we check the invisibility spell (and the greater invisibility spell). Nope, they don’t say you’re impossible to see. But obviously you should be, or else the spell is useless. So, we might assume that this is intended to be implied by the fact that the condition is literally called “invisible.” But then we find that the hide anction also grants this condition, and it does not say that you can be seen as a specific exception to how the condition works. Therefore, either hiding must make you impossible to see, or the invisibility spell must not. This would be true regardless of what the name of the condition, the spell(s), and the action were. The problem is with how the effects themselves are worded; none of them actually specify whether or not a creature with normal vision that is looking directly at you can see you, which inevitably creates an unintuitive result with either the spell or the action.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Charlaquin, post: 9590819, member: 6779196"] Right, but you have to take the condition in context with its sources. The invisible condition doesn’t say it makes you impossible to see, but it might not need to, if the source of the condition makes you impossible to see (without a more specific rule like truesight allowing it). So we check the invisibility spell (and the greater invisibility spell). Nope, they don’t say you’re impossible to see. But obviously you should be, or else the spell is useless. So, we might assume that this is intended to be implied by the fact that the condition is literally called “invisible.” But then we find that the hide anction also grants this condition, and it does not say that you [I]can[/I] be seen as a specific exception to how the condition works. Therefore, either hiding must make you impossible to see, or the invisibility spell must not. This would be true regardless of what the name of the condition, the spell(s), and the action were. The problem is with how the effects themselves are worded; none of them actually specify whether or not a creature with normal vision that is looking directly at you can see you, which inevitably creates an unintuitive result with either the spell or the action. [/QUOTE]

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