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<blockquote data-quote="Sorinth" data-source="post: 9594040" data-attributes="member: 7050650">So for reference page 19 of the PHB talks about hiding and says &quot;The Dungeon Master decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding&quot; so cover/obscurement/etc... all comes after the DM deciding if you can hide or not. This doesn't stop the characters from doing things like hiding behind a tree it just means the mechanics of hiding aren't being used yet, you aren't saying to the player &quot;No you can't hide&quot; like video games do with the whole you can't rest now because monsters are nearby, you just say &quot;Ok you hide behind the tree, now what?&quot;, no roll they just do it. It's Shrodinger's Stealth, the player has both succeeded and failed at stealth, once we get to a point where we need to know we open the box, ie roll the d20 and get a result.As for the meta-gaming aspect it's not unique to stealth, it's something that comes up all over the place and each table needs to find a way that works for them. I think in 2e it was suggested that the DM roll the dice for the character and that the character always believes they've succeeded at being stealthy, you could use a passive stealth, you could call for rolls at random so they don't know when it's a real/fake roll, and sure you can come up with a house rule for passive stealth.My take on the DC 15 thing is that it's only meant for in combat, they wanted to make hiding in the middle of combat more difficult which I don't love but whatever. As a guess maybe they felt with Steady Aim and the Vex weapon mastery it's not needed as much.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Sorinth, post: 9594040, member: 7050650"] So for reference page 19 of the PHB talks about hiding and says "The Dungeon Master decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding" so cover/obscurement/etc... all comes after the DM deciding if you can hide or not. This doesn't stop the characters from doing things like hiding behind a tree it just means the mechanics of hiding aren't being used yet, you aren't saying to the player "No you can't hide" like video games do with the whole you can't rest now because monsters are nearby, you just say "Ok you hide behind the tree, now what?", no roll they just do it. It's Shrodinger's Stealth, the player has both succeeded and failed at stealth, once we get to a point where we need to know we open the box, ie roll the d20 and get a result. As for the meta-gaming aspect it's not unique to stealth, it's something that comes up all over the place and each table needs to find a way that works for them. I think in 2e it was suggested that the DM roll the dice for the character and that the character always believes they've succeeded at being stealthy, you could use a passive stealth, you could call for rolls at random so they don't know when it's a real/fake roll, and sure you can come up with a house rule for passive stealth. My take on the DC 15 thing is that it's only meant for in combat, they wanted to make hiding in the middle of combat more difficult which I don't love but whatever. As a guess maybe they felt with Steady Aim and the Vex weapon mastery it's not needed as much. [/QUOTE]

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