Thoughts On The Challenge Rating System

[S'mon]

I think... each PC is CR = Level, but to get the party EL I need to translate CRs into ELs? So 1 5th level PC is EL 10 by U_K system, so 4 would be, er, no...

I add together the CRs/Levels, so 4 x5 = 20, then take away 4, = 16? So 4 5th level PCs are CR 16? So their EL is 17? I have a headache now...

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi S'mon!

Hi Craig - looking at this again trying to understand it, you say "Challenge Ratings (CRs) are a measurement of power. There are two general principles regarding CR: firstly that it signifies a moderately challenging encounter for a party of 4-5 characters of the same power...."

You put a Great Wyrm Red at CR 62, so you appear to say that a Great Wyrm Red Dragon is a suitable challenge for a 62nd level party. Is that right?

Not exactly, depends on your definition of moderate.

It seems unlikely.

I agree.

Two things.

Firstly under this system you take account of a PCs inherant ability scores.

Standard point buy is +1 CR. Wishes purchased (?) would also affect a characters CR (unless the wishes were from tomes or rings that you were incorporating into their equipment wealth).

Secondly, a moderate encounter by WotC standards (where monsters are concerned) does not give the same results as my system. To replicate a WotC 'moderate' encounter use EL -2 (instead of EL -4).

By your EL it's EL 24 which means by your definition of EL that it is equal in power to a group of 4 24th level PCs, which sounds plausible.

Am I right that this CR 62/EL24 dragon is actually equal to

1. 1 62nd level PC, or

Technically a 61st-level PC (using standard point buy with no inherant wishes extreneous to his equipment wealth)

2. 4 24th level PCs?

Actually the dragon would be fractionally tougher than 4 24th-level PCs. A 50/50 fight depending on situational modifiers.

I can see those both being true; but surely it's not a moderate challenge for 4 62nd level PCs?

As I mentioned earlier, to mimic a moderate challenge as WotC infer it, use an EL -2 (instead of an EL -4) encounter.

4 61st-level PCs will breeze through such a dragon as easily as 4 PCs of any level against a single character of equal level.

All monster encounters in the MM are set CRs that make them EL -2 encounters by my reckoning. So if a moderate encounter 'to you' means the same difficulty as WotC, use EL -2....which in this case would be a party of 4 39-46th-level characters.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey S'mon!

But I don't understand how under the U_K system a young black dragon can be CR 11 but EL 14???

Its simple.

The conversion table uses the following principle: when you double the CR, the EL increases by +4.

CR 1 = EL 1
CR 2 = EL 5
CR 4 = EL 9
CR 8 = EL 13
CR 16 = EL 17
CR 32 = EL 21
etc.

 

[S'mon]

As I mentioned earlier, to mimic a moderate challenge as WotC infer it, use an EL -2 (instead of an EL -4) encounter.

4 61st-level PCs will breeze through such a dragon as easily as 4 PCs of any level against a single character of equal level.

All monster encounters in the MM are set CRs that make them EL -2 encounters by my reckoning. So if a moderate encounter 'to you' means the same difficulty as WotC, use EL -2....which in this case would be a party of 4 39-46th-level characters.

OK thanks, that's helpful.

 

[S'mon]

So... on your analysis it seems to me a WoTC CR 10 means it's actually about 50% as powerful as a party of 4 level 10 PCs; but in a battle with the 4 of them the creature will do 50% as much damage as them and take 200% as much, so will be defeated with 25% resources, like the DMG says. But the same creature vs 2 PCs would be an even match, using up on average 100% resources - ie 50% TPK. Which the DMG does not say. Hm, that explains a lot...

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey S'mon!

I think... each PC is CR = Level, but to get the party EL I need to translate CRs into ELs? So 1 5th level PC is EL 10 by U_K system, so 4 would be, er, no...

I add together the CRs/Levels, so 4 x5 = 20, then take away 4, = 16? So 4 5th level PCs are CR 16? So their EL is 17? I have a headache now...

Its all very simple...take a deep breath and look at the top of the right hand column on page 15. It takes you through the 3 steps.

Step 1: Add all the CRs.

eg. x3 5th-level PCs and 1 6th-level PC (all with standard point buy which is +1 CR)

Total 25 (5+1 + 5+1 + 5+1 + 6+1)

Step 2: Convert to Encounter Level using table 2-1.

eg. CR 25 = EL 19

Step 3: Modify for the number of characters using table 2-2.

eg. Party of Four Characters = EL -4.

So EL 19 - 4 = EL 15

The party of 3 5th-level and 1 6th-level character are EL 15.



So if you want to set them a moderate encounter use EL 11 = single monster of CR 6 (by my system)

eg. Green Dragon Wyrmling, Basilisk, Troll, Vampire Spawn etc.

If you want a tough encounter (or WotC moderate encounter) use EL 13 = single monster CR 8-9 (by my system)

eg. Very Young Black Dragon, Chuul, Bearded Devil, Megaraptor etc.

If you want a difficult encounter use EL 15 = single monster of CR 12-13 (by my system).

eg. Very Young Red Dragon, Athach, Erinyes, Tyrannosaurus etc.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey S'mon!

So... on your analysis it seems to me a WoTC CR 10 means it's actually about 50% as powerful as a party of 4 level 10 PCs;

Yes.

Of course I am making a generalism about WotC CRs, for accurate CRs see the list on the pdf.

but in a battle with the 4 of them the creature will do 50% as much damage as them and take 200% as much, so will be defeated with 25% resources, like the DMG says.

A single (WotC) CR 10 monster vs. a party of 4 10th-level PCs, would, on average, result in:

75% chance of Party victory, using 50% of their resources.

But the same creature vs 2 PCs would be an even match, using up on average 100% resources - ie 50% TPK. Which the DMG does not say. Hm, that explains a lot...

Yes.

A single (WotC) CR 10 monster vs. a party of 2 10th-level PCs, would, on average, result in:

50% chance of Party victory, using 100% of their resources.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Is this change in the definition of "moderate" something recent?

I have v5 of the Challenging Challenge Ratings PDF, and table 2-5 has (Moderate) besides the EL difference of -4; that's also the row that gives 75 xp per level to someone in a 4-member party. So 13.333 moderate encounters is a level.

An EL-4 difference corresponds to a party opposing a character of equal level, or a party of 4 61st level characters fighting a Great Red Wyrm.

What you seem to be saying is that a WotC moderate encounter is really a -2 EL difference; a tough encounter; e.g. a party of 40th level characters fighting the Great Wyrm Red. This would give them all (150 x 40) 6000 xp for the exercise.

Am I correct? Or should they get 3000 xp for what is a WotC moderate encounter?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Cheiromancer mate!

Is this change in the definition of "moderate" something recent?

I have v5 of the Challenging Challenge Ratings PDF, and table 2-5 has (Moderate) besides the EL difference of -4; that's also the row that gives 75 xp per level to someone in a 4-member party. So 13.333 moderate encounters is a level.

An EL-4 difference corresponds to a party opposing a character of equal level, or a party of 4 61st level characters fighting a Great Red Wyrm.

What you seem to be saying is that a WotC moderate encounter is really a -2 EL difference; a tough encounter; e.g. a party of 40th level characters fighting the Great Wyrm Red. This would give them all (150 x 40) 6000 xp for the exercise.

Am I correct? Or should they get 3000 xp for what is a WotC moderate encounter?

A moderate encounter is used to describe an EL-4 encounter. eg. x4 15th-level characters vs. a single 15th-level character.

But by my reckoning the the majority of WotC monster CRs are 2/3rds what they should be if we treated CR and ECL as the same thing...which of course it should be.

So WotC 'moderate' monster encounters are actually 'tough' encounters.

The Red Dragons CR you give above was determined by me, not WotC, and is the monsters ECL (and proper CR).

 

[Cheiromancer]

I guess what I am worrying about is the equivocation in the expression "13.333 moderate encounters yields enough experience points for participating characters to advance one level."

Is that 13.333 EL-2 encounters, or 13.333 EL-4 encounters?