Thoughts On The Challenge Rating System

[S'mon]

Maybe Demogorgon is actually higher than CR 28 and his CR was incorrectly assigned? Many Epic CRs are assigned wrongly (Zirrushi).

 

[styker]

if you compare the full potential of a 25th level group they will defeat this enemy without much damage... a level 35 or maybe 30 party will destroy him easily like an ant. So i think this CR is a little wrong...

 

[boredgremlin]

Well CR's break down in higher levels. Enemy HP and defensive measures dont keep pace with damage dealing potential at high levels.

 

[S'mon]

if you compare the full potential of a 25th level group they will defeat this enemy without much damage... a level 35 or maybe 30 party will destroy him easily like an ant. So i think this CR is a little wrong...

Maybe if they are able to buff-scry-teleport, is that what you mean by 'full potential'? In an encounter with neither side buffed he will easily destroy a standard party of 4 25th level Iconics IMO.

 

[S'mon]

Well CR's break down in higher levels. Enemy HP and defensive measures dont keep pace with damage dealing potential at high levels.

I'm going by "challenging encounter for a balanced party of 4 25 point buy Iconic default array PCs with standard PC wealth for their level" which is supposedly the WoTC standard. Balanced means Fighter Rogue Wizard Cleric or similar, encountering monster in a situation where neither side is prepped and at close but not point blank range, probably 50-80'.

Note that under this definition a "CR 25" dragon will also trash a level 25 party. The dragon CRs are assigned assuming a fully buffed & ready party attacks the dragon. Under this dragon-style definition but assuming Iconic PCs I can see the monster being maybe as low as CR 28. If your PCs are significantly tougher than the Iconics obviously it could be lower, maybe CR 25 or even lower if they're 50 point PCs with powerful Prestige classes and tons of Epic gear who buff/scry/port in on the critter. In fact many WoTC-assigned Epic CRs seem to assume this definition...

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

If your PCs are significantly tougher than the Iconics obviously it could be lower, maybe CR 25 or even lower if they're 50 point PCs with powerful Prestige classes and tons of Epic gear who buff/scry/port in on the critter.

It has been my experience that this is exactly the case that most campaigns that reach epic levels are far above the Iconics' level of power and toughness and DMs don't fully grasp the situation.

 

[styker]

Maybe if they are able to buff-scry-teleport, is that what you mean by 'full potential'? In an encounter with neither side buffed he will easily destroy a standard party of 4 25th level Iconics IMO.

Off course, in levels above 15 every monster can easily destroy a party without buff and right defenses, it's assumed that your character will always have defenses and buffs in his body. It's because of this that the mage disjuction is so terrible to a group... or do you want t say that high levels partys never use heroes feast, energy immunity, contigency, time stop (to buff again if their defenses are dismissed) or maybe wall to late the enemy to give time to cast the protection again...

 

[boredgremlin]

Lol anyone else remember baldurs gate 2? Every wizard in that came did the timestop-buff trick. never stopped me from killing them easily. And 3rd edition got rid of a lot of the rediculously overpowered defenses from 2nd edition.

There are numerous ways to stop a player from doing things like that, too many to even list. But for DM's who cant think of any. Have a BBEG start doing it to the players. Watch all the neat ideas they come up with to beat the strategy. Then, steal em.

 

[Campbell]

Hey UK Mate,

I've been attemptinting to calculate the CR of the Grell writeup in Lords of Madness, and was unsure how to calculate the value of a couple of their abilities. Specifically Expert Grappler, their variant paralysis ability, and the sightless ability were troublesome factors. Specifics are below. Normally I'd be satisfied with some educated guesses, but I plan to make heavy use of Grells in an upcoming campaign arc.

Expert Grappler (Ex) : Second tier in Improved Grab ability chain. A grell can take a -10 penalty, grappling witha singular tentacle and remain on ungrappled, rather than the -20 penalty offered by Improved Grab. Their +10 racial bonus to grapple checks is included in this ability suite. I figured that this ability sans the grapple bonus was worth a feat, but I couldn't calculate what the grapple bonus was worth for the life of me. I also noticed that the Grappl Bonus/ Penalty was not figured in the size values you gave in challenging Clhallenge Ratings v5.

Paralysis (Ex) : Functions as normal paralysis, but it requires a solid hit. Starts at DC 10. Multiple hits within the same round do not force multiple saves, but instead increase the DC by 1 for every hit beyond the initial strike. Save is Constitution based with a -4 racial penalty. I priced this ability slightly lower then a Ghoul's touch paralysis attack, but I'm unsure on this one.

Sightless (Ex) : Immune to gaze attacks, visual effects, illusions, and other attack forms that rely on sight. I figured that this ability was about on par with immunity to mind effects.

I'm afraid that I might have over-rated these abilities. While my results of a Silver Rule CR 8 pan out with what I expected to be an under rated creature, I believe I rated the Grell a tad too strongly.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey UK Mate,

Hey Campbell dude!

I've been attemptinting to calculate the CR of the Grell writeup in Lords of Madness, and was unsure how to calculate the value of a couple of their abilities.

I don't have that ability yet, but I'll take a look.

Specifically Expert Grappler, their variant paralysis ability, and the sightless ability were troublesome factors. Specifics are below. Normally I'd be satisfied with some educated guesses, but I plan to make heavy use of Grells in an upcoming campaign arc.

Fire away.

Expert Grappler (Ex) : Second tier in Improved Grab ability chain. A grell can take a -10 penalty, grappling witha singular tentacle and remain on ungrappled, rather than the -20 penalty offered by Improved Grab. Their +10 racial bonus to grapple checks is included in this ability suite. I figured that this ability sans the grapple bonus was worth a feat, but I couldn't calculate what the grapple bonus was worth for the life of me.

I would treat it as just another feat. The grapple bonus is essentially a skill bonus.

I also noticed that the Grappl Bonus/ Penalty was not figured in the size values you gave in challenging Clhallenge Ratings v5.

Thats because Grapple and Hide cancel each other out.

Paralysis (Ex) : Functions as normal paralysis, but it requires a solid hit. Starts at DC 10. Multiple hits within the same round do not force multiple saves, but instead increase the DC by 1 for every hit beyond the initial strike. Save is Constitution based with a -4 racial penalty. I priced this ability slightly lower then a Ghoul's touch paralysis attack, but I'm unsure on this one.

Very weak. Half the ghouls paralysis I would think.

Sightless (Ex) : Immune to gaze attacks, visual effects, illusions, and other attack forms that rely on sight. I figured that this ability was about on par with immunity to mind effects.

No higher than +0.5 in total, if that. You are not really immune to illusions, as some might have sound and smell traits.

The simple test I use is asking myself: "Would you allow this as a feat?" If so its +0.2. Personally I see this as slightly too powerful for a feat, hence +0.5.

I'm afraid that I might have over-rated these abilities. While my results of a Silver Rule CR 8 pan out with what I expected to be an under rated creature, I believe I rated the Grell a tad too strongly.

Well if you still think you are having problems, list the details and we can see where any faults lie.