Thoughts on the Loremaster PrC

[Spatzimaus]

For the most part, then, you only allow PrCs that you made yourself? That's what I've had to do....

That's more or less what we do IMC, too. Not so much "made yourself" as "customized to the campaign", though; I don't think there are any PrCs left in our world that are identical to their book forms.
Basically, the player finds a PrC that's sorta like what he wants. The prerequisites get reduced a bit, and an ongoing cost is added (for example, instead of 4 Feat cost for 10/10 spellcasting levels, drop to a 3-Feat cost and only give 8/10 spellcasting levels, so that there's a drawback to continuing in the class.)
Player and DM argue a bit, negotiating to something they're both happy with. The key is, you don't start discussing the PrC right as you're about to take it; this is the sort of discussion you have 5 levels beforehand.

Your mileage may vary, of course.

 

[Chacal]

For the most part, then, you only allow PrCs that you made yourself? That's what I've had to do....

I house ruled some to avoid classes that are strictly superior to base classes (There has to be something (significant) that the base class is better at).
So far, the PCs are aiming at a spellsword-like, a verdantlord-like, and a frenziedberserker-like.
One converted PC is also a loremaster with a lesser spell progression.

Chacal

 

[bret]

One converted PC is also a loremaster with a lesser spell progression.

Chacal

OK, that makes me curious.

What is it about the Loremaster that you felt was overly powerful? Having played one, I don't think it has an advantage over a normal wizard. It has different strengths, but I don't think it is more powerful.

Dropping the spell progression is a severe hit on any spellcaster. I hope you bumped up some of it's special powers to make up for it.

 

[Chacal]

OK, that makes me curious.

What is it about the Loremaster that you felt was overly powerful? Having played one, I don't think it has an advantage over a normal wizard. It has different strengths, but I don't think it is more powerful.

Dropping the spell progression is a severe hit on any spellcaster. I hope you bumped up some of it's special powers to make up for it.

The problem I had with the loremaster was the 4 skill points in a good list with some exclusive skills plus abilities (I don't remember how we changed the rather uninspired +1 abilities, I'd have to look at his PC).
I really have a problem with PrC that give +1 spellcasting without giving out something (like a school). The prereq weren't a problem in this case, cause the SkillFocus (History) was something that was obvious for the character.
I've removed some (3 ? ) spellcasting levels because the 2nd Ed PC was a Bard9(Loremaster)/Wizard12 and we found the best way to translate him was forgetting about the bard part and going the Wizard route.
The Loremaster PrC really fitted the PC so we gave him some levels in it. But we didn't want him to cast 8th level spells (he was only casting 6th level in 2ed) so we made that adjustment. If it hadn't been for a conversion, I would have removed fewer levels (only the first, maybe, and perhaps a -1 or -2 to caster level)

Chacal

 

[Shard O'Glase]

It basically depends on whether you think the 2-3 feat hit is a hit, the knowledge skill hit isn't big since you make that up with the 4 skill points. Me I'd never give up 2 feats for 2 more skill ponts per level and some lame div abilities and some 1/2 feats of feats I never would of chosen. Unless i was playing a diviner this class just isn't worth it.

If I took a level hit on spell progression even if I played a diviner this class wouldn't be worth it.

Heck in T&B all the take a hit to spell caster progression classes just flat out suck. About the only one with any decent ability is the fate spinner and that is for only for the hey look aint I cool I made the BBEG fail his save set. Oh and the spellsword is good for someone who was poorly planning on an even f/w split anyhow. Heck the rest even with cool abilities like teleporting through bodies and sometimes amking it messy aren't worth than more than the loss of 2 spell levels. So if the loremaster with his lamo abilities looses even one he sucks beyond belief.

 

[Chacal]

The 2-3 feat hit is usually a 1 feat hit, IME.
There's no way a PrC IMC would have a full spellcasting progression without losing something significant.
I know I'm in the minority about this, but I don't think using "useless" feats as prerequisites is a good way to balance a class. I believe a PrC should be balanced with base classes.
I still have players who want to take a PrC, and few of them have masochists tendances
Still, not every PC will have a PrC, and I feel it's quite right : PCs differentiation doesn't always require specific mechanisms. One can have a cool status (even cool powers) without a cool PrC.


Chacal