Throngs

[Sporemine]

It looks good.

Try applying it to kobolds and sending it to my new thread.
http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-fan-creations-house-rules/256790-kobolds-lifes-little-failures.html

Good work.

-Sporemine

 

[77IM]

Done! I made two throngs of kobolds: http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-fan...obolds-lifes-little-failures.html#post4807908

It took me 13 minutes, and a lot of that time was spent formatting. Anyone checking my math will note that the kobold raiders have not got as much vulnerability as they should; it didn't feel like level 6 kobolds should have all of Vulnerability 10.

I heavily modified these throngs. The mob attack, trap sense, and shifty were just too many traits. I folded mob attack into combat advantage (an additional bonus when they have combat advantage), and elements of both mob attack and shifty are subsumed by throng movement (the thing where creatures in the throng's space grant it combat advantage).

Simpler creatures make the best throngs. Because throngs have so much going on (the aura, the resistances, the strange movement and targeting rules), a creature with a ton of traits/features/passive powers might get too complicated, and the DM might start forgetting about some of the powers.

So it's better to drop unnecessary powers, such as those that don't make sense on a throng or don't seem as useful (really, the kobold throngs aren't going to be navigating traps, and shifting and ganging up is not as useful to such large creatures). Sometimes, you can figure out the "flavor" of those powers and roll them into existing powers (like I tried to do with the kobold's combat advantage).

-- 77IM

 

[Sporemine]

Thanks for the kobolds, for the rest to you, come check out the stats.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-fan-creations-house-rules/256790-kobolds-lifes-little-failures.html

Kudos

-Sporemine

 

[Gargoyle]

Interesting stuff, makes me want to check out Open Grave.

Am I the only one who saw this thread and read it as monster thongs?

I suggest misspelling the title on purpose so more people check it out. Looks useful.

 

[eriktheguy]

Excellent, excellent stuff sir! Just two things.

1. Now that you can target multiple enemies in the throng, the vulnerability to close/area seems obsolete/overkill

2. Since this is a new rule, and you have been modifying it, forgive me if I get this wrong. It appears that you give the throngs melee burst attacks and ranged burst attacks. Are you doing this according to a set rule or is it ad hoc (as you see fit).

I want to try these out.

Edit: Oh, also, how does this sound: multiple creatures changes when bloodied. (One half, round down).
For example, Guard Squadron
Multiple creatures: 9 (Bloodied 4)
One more nit-picky suggestion, use "Multiple targets" instead of "multiple creatures"?

 

[mlangsdorf]

The intent of the multiple target rule is to let a PC use multi-target Ranged and Melee attacks against the throng. Otherwise, there's a weirdness where the Ranger can attack two separate kobolds with Twin Strike when they're standing next to each other, but he can only attack one of them if they're standing next to 20 friends.

Fix the wording of
"The throng counts as multiple separate creatures for the purpose of attacks that target or affect multiple separate creatures. Such an attack can target or affect the throng up to one time per constituent creature."

to
"The throng counts as multiple separate creatures for the purpose of non-area attacks that target or affect multiple separate creatures. Such an attack can target or affect the throng up to one time per constituent creature."

 

[eriktheguy]

The intent of the multiple target rule is to let a PC use multi-target Ranged and Melee attacks against the throng. Otherwise, there's a weirdness where the Ranger can attack two separate kobolds with Twin Strike when they're standing next to each other, but he can only attack one of them if they're standing next to 20 friends.

Fix the wording of
"The throng counts as multiple separate creatures for the purpose of attacks that target or affect multiple separate creatures. Such an attack can target or affect the throng up to one time per constituent creature."

to
"The throng counts as multiple separate creatures for the purpose of non-area attacks that target or affect multiple separate creatures. Such an attack can target or affect the throng up to one time per constituent creature."

Yes, that was actually another fix that I thought would work

"The throng counts as multiple creatures for purposes of melee and ranged attacks with multiple targets. Such attacks can attack the throng multiple times as though it were # creatures."

This allows vulnerability to deal with the area attacks and this special rule to deal with melee/ranged attacks.

The only problem is bookkeeping. I would suggest going with just one or the other, either vulnerability or multiple targets.
Vulnerability is easier to keep track of. Swarms do not give you the benefit of attacking them as multiple targets. I think its better this way because it gives the controllers something to do and makes bookkeeping easier.

 

[77IM]

More Playtest Results

So -- the 10th-level party becomes surrounded by 15 (!) level 12 skeleton minion throngs (an upleveled decrepit skeleton), plus a level 10 elite. Clearly a difficult encounter... but they got SKEWERED.

The problem was that on the skeleton's turn, 3 of the party members were in a clump, and too far for the skeletons to charge, so 9 skeletons each used their ranged attack area: Area burst 1 within 15; +17 vs. AC; 10 damage. Miss: 5 damage.) on those 3 party members. For those doing the math at home, that's between 45 and 90 points of damage to each party member. Two dropped from near-full HP, and a third would have except I retroactively allowed him to use an immediate interrupt defense-boosting power (it's his second 4e game, so I didn't want to penalize him for not knowing when to apply that power). The team implemented "plan A" (run like hell) and barely escaped.

Now, massive numbers of high-level minions are supposed to be a threat during the early combat (and it was a difficult encounter) but I am wondering if making a ranged attack (which many creatures have at-will) into an area burst 1 with miss-half is too much. Maybe one or the other: " Area burst 1 within 15; +17 vs. AC; 10 damage. Miss: If only one creature was targeted, 5 damage." For now, I'm not going to make this change, but I will keep an eye on it. I don't want a system where ranged throngs are a much bigger threat than melee throngs.

The minion resist-all was a problem, though. These guys had "Resist 16 all" plus the half damage from melee and ranged attacks. The reasoning is that without some resistance, any amount of damage will pop the entire throng, which doesn't seem right for that many guys (if they were individual minions, a single high-damage hit would only take out one of them). But 10+1/2 level is too much. For a melee/ranged attack, because of half damage, you need to deal 33 damage on a single hit -- for a level 12 character, that's like a daily power or really good encounter power or a crit. For a minion! It's worse, actually, for area and close powers. These SHOULD be able to steamroll minion throngs.

So I'm going to change it to "Resist 16 damage from melee and ranged attacks" and drop the half-damage. This makes minion damage a lot simpler to resolve. They still auto-die from close and area attacks (and anything that deals auto-damage, like rain of steel) but melee and ranged attacks need to beat the threshold of their resistance to hit them. (10+1/2 level is actually pretty close to the average expected damage of a single-target at-will power.)

-- 77IM

 

[mlangsdorf]

Swarms do not give you the benefit of attacking them as multiple targets. I think its better this way because it gives the controllers something to do and makes bookkeeping easier.

Swarms should give you the option of attacking them as multiple targets. If you're fighting a horde of needlefang drakes, you should be able to Twinstrike or Cleave them.

I'm not really sure how the book keeping increases when you can target swarms and throngs multiple times with melee or ranged attacks. Swarms and Throngs already behave strangely around melee and ranged attacks.