Tier zero

[Visigani]

The word "Any" is terribly terribly dangerous in a game like this. Things left open ended are incredibly dangerous.


For example, let's suppose you could duplicate the casting of "any" divine spell at will. Let's consider what that would encompass. I won't write down "duplicate the casting of, I'll just use "cast", but keep the duplication notion in mind.

Could you cast "Flame Strike"? It is most certainly a divine spell.

Could you, however, cast an "Empowered Flame Strike"?

Well, the question is... is an Empowered Flame Strike a divine spell? It may be a modified divine spell, but it's still a divine spell.

If you can drive any convertible on the lot that also includes the convertibles with power windows. Modified or not, they're still convertibles.

Now we move into especially dangerous territory. Real "theorycraft" here.

Could you cast a Divine Metamagic Empowered Flame Strike? Again, the question becomes "Is it a divine spell"?

However heavily modified it is still a divine spell. If you can cast *any* divine spell you can cast this modified divine spell. Because it's still a divine spell.

The question comes up "What about the requirements?".

Divine metamagic requires turn undead attempts to use. However, you're not using divine metamagic. You're duplicating the spell of someone who would have used divine metamagic to achieve the affect. This is extremely important to keep in mind here.

You're not duplicating the PROCESS of casting the spell (which requires the expenditure of turn undead), you're duplicating the actual spell itself.


This means you can add any (or all) metamagic feats there are to any divine spell and then adjust it with divine metamagic down to its base level. This further means that you can add any metamagic modifier to any spell.

Because regardless of how heavily you modified it, it's still a divine spell... and you can cast (or duplicate) any divine spell.

Any is a dangerous word.


And it's why the Warlock is Tier Zero.

Consider the abject ridiculous potency of being able to duplicate the effect of any arcane or divine spell and then put it into an object, a staff for example or a rod.


From the text:

Imbue Item (Su): A warlock of 12th level or higher can
use his supernatural power to create magic items, even if he
does not know the spells required to make an item (although
he must know the appropriate item creation feat). He can
substitute a Use Magic Device check (DC 15 + spell level for
arcane spells or 25 + spell level for divine spells) in place of
a required spell he doesn’t know or can’t cast.

If the check succeeds, the warlock can create the item as if
he had cast the required spell. If it fails, he cannot complete
the item. He does not expend the XP or gp costs for making
the item; his progress is simply arrested. He cannot retry this
Use Magic Device check for that spell until he gains a new
level.


Read that very very carefully. If the Warlock does not know the required spell, be it arcane or divine he may substitute a UMD check in its place. This means that if the object he wishes to create requires the spell, he can duplicate that spell.


I'm not saying it's sane, or wise, or that I'd allow it in the game. However, rules as written the Warlock may duplicate ANY divine or Arcane spell when creating an item, so long as that item requires that spell for its creation. Not any BASE arcane or divine spell... ANY arcane or divine spell. Further, he does not require the necessary metamagic feats (unlike the Artificer which specifically is stated as requiring those feats).

 

[Dandu]

I think you're reading too much into it.

 

[xigbar]

Why each class is in its tier. Artificer.

 

[Jack Simth]

I'm not saying it's sane, or wise, or that I'd allow it in the game. However, rules as written the Warlock may duplicate ANY divine or Arcane spell when creating an item, so long as that item requires that spell for its creation. Not any BASE arcane or divine spell... ANY arcane or divine spell. Further, he does not require the necessary metamagic feats (unlike the Artificer which specifically is stated as requiring those feats).

You may want to re-read that yourself. He's only duplicating it for purposes of crafting the item. So yes, if he grabs Scribe Scroll he can UMD up a scroll of Miracle without actually needing to cast Miracle as normal... but this doesn't let him simply cast Miracle (although he can make a scroll of Miracle, and he can activate said scroll with UMD).

 

[Visigani]

You may want to re-read that yourself. He's only duplicating it for purposes of crafting the item. So yes, if he grabs Scribe Scroll he can UMD up a scroll of Miracle without actually needing to cast Miracle as normal... but this doesn't let him simply cast Miracle (although he can make a scroll of Miracle, and he can activate said scroll with UMD).

Correct, but I'm going a bit further than that.

I'm saying our good friend the Warlock can not only scribe that scroll of Miracle... but he can scribe a scroll of MODIFIED miracle.

i.e. a Miracle that's been altered by the heighten metamagic feat, for example.... without needing to have Heighten.

I think you guys aren't seeing what i'm getting at here.

 

[Dandu]

We're seeing, we're just also succeeding on our saving throws to disbelieve.

 

[Jackinthegreen]

At the very least, the DC to create an item with the modified spell would have to be higher. Using Maximize on the spell for example would raise the DC by at least three, since that effectively raises the spell's casting level.

I'm not saying I agree or disagree with the power Imbue could provide, but there's definitely going to be consequences for trying to modify a spell.

 

[Dandu]

I don't think you can apply metamagic to items you are creating.

 

[Visigani]

I don't think you can apply metamagic to items you are creating.

You can.

 

[Visigani]

At the very least, the DC to create an item with the modified spell would have to be higher. Using Maximize on the spell for example would raise the DC by at least three, since that effectively raises the spell's casting level.

I'm not saying I agree or disagree with the power Imbue could provide, but there's definitely going to be consequences for trying to modify a spell.

And that friend is where it gets stupid.

Because it's based SOLELY on the level of the spell in question. That's it. Even going pretty vanilla, say a heightened to 5th level fireball in a staff... it'd only increase the DC by +2 from what it normally would be (and what it normally would be is ridiculously low... like a dc of 18... 15+Spell level for arcane, 25+Spell level for Divine).


It's widely known you can use MODIFIED magic to create stuff, Artificers for example have mechanics specifically for duplicating these very things. However, the Warlock has no such restrictions.

And straight from the ess are dee: Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal.

This makes it clear it's possible to craft items via metamagic feats. However, only spell casters actually need to actually have the metamagic feat. The Warlock isn't casting a spell. The Warlock is creating a supernatural effect that DUPLICATES a spell.