IronWolf
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First, to echo Qik, let's keep name calling and condemning certain GMing habits out of the discussion. We are here to have fun and this thread is simply to talk over time based xp and gather people's opinions and thoughts on it and come up with a workable arrangement.
I am still forming my opinion on the topic of time based xp, so some of my post might be a bit of a rambling jaunt. I like empowering GMs, but at the same time it is only fair that a player expect some consistency across games. It is one of the hazards of "organized play" that a GM ends up doing some extra work to keep things on a fair and level playing field for the greater good of the Living world. I am the first to admit that I run a much looser game in my home games than I do here. So with that said...
A lot of what we do in Living World play is to provide a consistent world for players to play in. So they can learn the rules of the world and know it can be applied across the board. To gain this consistency we do as GMs give up a bit of freedom to help the make the Living World as a whole better. So I agree with GlassEye that we should not undervalue this consistency.
In Roaming Dead's case the adventure rules say that there may be a short intermission during the course of adventure to allow leveling up. So at least in this case there may be a mixed signal.
If we go towards the GM and judge determine when XP hits then I think it will become more important for the adventure rules to be stated up front when the pitch is made in the Inn, so players will know up front whether the structure of the game meets their expectations.
Some of it is tracking when you level so you know when to apply the higher tbx award amount for being higher level. It seems to me this is a littler easier to track along the way than to go back through what could be a very long thread and track it. So simply from the "meta" standpoint, tracking as we go seems easier. I believe an argument could be made to reach a level for xp tracking and such, but not actually apply the level mid-adventure.
I agree that GMing is a lot of work. We are just re-evaluating an area to see if there is too much gray that is in actuality causing more work for the GM. There is a certain amount of overhead when running "organized" play games that comes along with it. We just need to be sure the extra work is for the greater good and not unnecessarily adding work that doesn't have a pay off.
I have not watched this game, so take my comments with the grain of salt. But if there are two weeks between posts I have to question whether it isn't time to re-evaluate and create an exit point from the game. This sounds an extreme case and probably not one to base tbx and mid-adventure leveling on as it seems pretty outside the norm. Again, I have not followed that adventure, so my observations could be out of whack.
As mentioned above, the adventure rules did state there was a possibility of leveling up during the course of the adventure. Though I don't think anyone is whining about it, just someone saw something that didn't match how they thought tbx worked and brought it up. Talking it out and sorting it out as an area we might need to better define could reduce work in the long run as jkason said.
As a player in this game, it feels like this is going to be a shorter adventure, so I really have no issue not leveling up mid-game. My opinion would likely differ if this was a longer adventure.
Fair and consistent. Consistent could mean a blanket rule for all of LPF or it could mean, the GM posts their adventure rules up front in the first pitch for the adventure in the Inn and the player knows whether they want in on the game from the get go.
This is sort of my thought. It seems easier to keep up with these meta things along the way, updating the first post with links than to retroactively go back through and try to figure it all out. I know from some of my PFS games I kick myself for forgetting if a player finished their faction mission and having to go back through a very long thread to see.
Good point. There is a distinction between tbx awards and the actual leveling of a character during the adventure.
I am still forming my opinion on the topic of time based xp, so some of my post might be a bit of a rambling jaunt. I like empowering GMs, but at the same time it is only fair that a player expect some consistency across games. It is one of the hazards of "organized play" that a GM ends up doing some extra work to keep things on a fair and level playing field for the greater good of the Living world. I am the first to admit that I run a much looser game in my home games than I do here. So with that said...
GlassEye said:That inconsistency is unfair to players. One GM allows characters to level as soon as encounter & time xp gives them enough xp to do so; another allows leveling but only under certain conditions; and still another doesn't allow it until the end of the adventure.
A lot of what we do in Living World play is to provide a consistent world for players to play in. So they can learn the rules of the world and know it can be applied across the board. To gain this consistency we do as GMs give up a bit of freedom to help the make the Living World as a whole better. So I agree with GlassEye that we should not undervalue this consistency.
perrinmiller said:And guess what, those leveling up issues are posted in the DM's rules for the adventure ahead of time. You don't like what is published ahead of time, don't play it.
In Roaming Dead's case the adventure rules say that there may be a short intermission during the course of adventure to allow leveling up. So at least in this case there may be a mixed signal.
If we go towards the GM and judge determine when XP hits then I think it will become more important for the adventure rules to be stated up front when the pitch is made in the Inn, so players will know up front whether the structure of the game meets their expectations.
perrinmiller said:What is "unfair" by not getting to level-up in the middle of a dungeon? Can you prove to me that you are losing XP by not getting level-up or having to wait until adventure end to receive your TBX?
Some of it is tracking when you level so you know when to apply the higher tbx award amount for being higher level. It seems to me this is a littler easier to track along the way than to go back through what could be a very long thread and track it. So simply from the "meta" standpoint, tracking as we go seems easier. I believe an argument could be made to reach a level for xp tracking and such, but not actually apply the level mid-adventure.
perrinmiller said:DMing is a lot of work, you better recognize that before you start telling them they need to do more.
I agree that GMing is a lot of work. We are just re-evaluating an area to see if there is too much gray that is in actuality causing more work for the GM. There is a certain amount of overhead when running "organized" play games that comes along with it. We just need to be sure the extra work is for the greater good and not unnecessarily adding work that doesn't have a pay off.
perrinmiller said:I have a counter point to GE's overall complaint about long adventures. Dagger's at Midnight is a short 4 encounter adventure that is dragged out by lack of decent participation and slow posting rates of the participants. For months the characters have done little to advance the game (some posting once every 2 weeks or longer), yet earn the same XP over time.
I have not watched this game, so take my comments with the grain of salt. But if there are two weeks between posts I have to question whether it isn't time to re-evaluate and create an exit point from the game. This sounds an extreme case and probably not one to base tbx and mid-adventure leveling on as it seems pretty outside the norm. Again, I have not followed that adventure, so my observations could be out of whack.
perrinmiller said:DC's adventure is balanced for their characters to complete without leveling up. It was not advertized to allow leveling up nor mid-adventure shopping. Whining about not getting to level up mid-adventure is essentially saying you think your character should gain advantage for the final encounters instead of playing as it was designed. It is a short adventure that is in no danger of dragging out into heavy role-playing without rewards. I stand by my Judgement on this when I approved it.
As mentioned above, the adventure rules did state there was a possibility of leveling up during the course of the adventure. Though I don't think anyone is whining about it, just someone saw something that didn't match how they thought tbx worked and brought it up. Talking it out and sorting it out as an area we might need to better define could reduce work in the long run as jkason said.
As a player in this game, it feels like this is going to be a shorter adventure, so I really have no issue not leveling up mid-game. My opinion would likely differ if this was a longer adventure.
perrinmiller said:Bottom line, Judges jobs are to keep things fair. There is nothing unfair about not getting to level-up mid-adventure or having to wait until the end before getting to apply your TBX/TBG.
Fair and consistent. Consistent could mean a blanket rule for all of LPF or it could mean, the GM posts their adventure rules up front in the first pitch for the adventure in the Inn and the player knows whether they want in on the game from the get go.
jkason said:In "Expansion," I seem to recall the GM having to do a lot of "you would have been level x here," and having to re-calculate tbx several times because of it. In the case of tbx granted at the end of an adventure, do we retcon leveling for tbx purposes? It seemed like that was what was happening there, and from my perspective, it seemed like far more work than doling out the time xp around the time it would level the character, whether or not the GM allows the leveling to take effect (which I think is an entirely separate issue, and not what I thought we were discussing)
This is sort of my thought. It seems easier to keep up with these meta things along the way, updating the first post with links than to retroactively go back through and try to figure it all out. I know from some of my PFS games I kick myself for forgetting if a player finished their faction mission and having to go back through a very long thread to see.
jkason said:I was under the impression that the discussion here was more about when and how tbx can be awarded, and less about mid-adventure leveling. I think the latter has been decided for a while: you GM dictates when you can or can't take any levelling your xp has earned you. And I'm more than fine with that.
Good point. There is a distinction between tbx awards and the actual leveling of a character during the adventure.