D&D 3E/3.5 Tinkering CRs: 3.0 v 3.5

[Gizzard]

This isn't a rules question; it's really more of a musing about mechanics and conversions. Hopefully it belongs in this forum. Anyway:

Today I DMed an old module that featured an Immoth; a CR 12 creature from the pre-3.5 MM2. Among his abilities is the ability to cast a limited number of pre-determined spells as Free Actions.

The Immoth mopped the floor with a group of four 8th level characters under 3.5E rules. I was discussing this with the players afterwards - when it came to me that when the CRs were assigned for this beast the designers expected the party also to have access to multiple spells per turn via 3.0 Haste.

The Immoth is a pretty extreme example, but the question I am thinking about is "What effect has the nerfing of broken 3.0 spells like Haste and Harm had on the CRs of monsters?" IE, is an Immoth really CR 12 anymore, or should he be more like CR 14?

And if so, does it seem that parties have become noticably less powerful with the nerfing of these spells?

 

[hong]

I don't recall what the immoth's stats are, but a CR 12 creature should be _expected_ to mop the floor with a party of four 8th level characters -- or at least give them a really tough fight.

 

[jabberwocky]

Well, the change to 3.5 nerfed the Immoth along with the player spellcasters, because the Immoth before had the option of being hasted for spellcasting as well. So, it would be hasted spell, normal spell, activate ice rune - 3 spells a round. The ice runes are prepared ahead of time, so they don't take up any of his 10th level sorceror spells/day. So you have an 8HD elemental who casts as a 10th level sorceror, but with more spells/day and one extra spell per round. Whether or not that's a CR12 or not, I'm not sure, but I don't think it's specifically nastier in 3.5 than it was in 3.0.