Tiny Gnomes -- how to balance?

[Nifft]

If you were to make a Tiny-sized PC race, how would you balace it?

Let's say we're replacing the current Small Gnome with a Tiny Gnome.

EDIT: Snip out Gnome first draft. See below instead!

-- Nifft

 

[yennico]

Size Bonuses: +2 to AC, +2 to Attack rolls,
...

Abilities: Str: -4, Dex: +2, Con: -2, Cha +2

+2 to Attack rolls are negated by -4 modifier to Str. ( which is eaqual to -2 on attack rolls ) if the attack is based on strength modifier. If this gnome uses weapon finesse...

How much damage does a tiny version of a weapon cause ?
Max. d4 minus any strength modifier. so one point at least ?

The attributes modifiers are excellent for playing bard or sorcerer.

Speak With Animals (Sp, Wis based) 1/day

Why does a tiny gnome gain this spell ? This makes the gnome more powerful.

Just my 2 cents
yennico

 

[Nifft]

Re: Re: Tiny Gnomes -- how to balance?

The attributes modifiers are excellent for playing bard or sorcerer.

Yeah, I'm hoping to keep their favored 3.5e class intact.

Why does a tiny gnome gain this spell ? This makes the gnome more powerful.

In 3.0e, this is a standard Gnome power -- Speak w/ Burrowing Animals. Since I'm negating a bunch of their other abilities, I figure that generalizing this power isn't overpowered.

-- Nifft

 

[Tonguez]

If you were to make a Tiny-sized PC race, how would you balace it?

Let's say we're replacing the current Small Gnome with a Tiny Gnome.

Here's my first draft --

Size: Tiny (Speed: 15 ft.)
Size Bonuses: +2 to AC, +2 to Attack rolls, +8 to Hide checks

Abilities: Str: -4, Dex: +2, Con: -2, Cha +2

+1 Racial bonus to DC of Illusion spells
+4 Racial bonus to Move Silently checks
Racial Cantrips (Sp, Cha based): Dancing Lights, Ghost Sound, Prestidigitation 1/day each
Speak With Animals (Sp, Wis based) 1/day

Favored Class: Bard


-- Nifft

Personally I'd leave the Speed at 20 (ever tried catching a mouse?) otherwise give a good evasion bonus. Also Tumble +2 to account for the fact they take less damage from falls and that whole evasion thing.

Str -4 and con -2 are MAJOR drawbacks and should be worth at least Dex +4 (maybe instead of the Tumble bonus) I'd even be tempted to go Dex+6 and drop evasion.

Oh and what about less sleep (4 instead of 8 perhaps)

I think it might have been GURPS that suggested that a character at 1 ft tall should only take 1 point of damage from falls regardless of distance fallen (could be wrong)

 

[Gez]

I think for a Tiny creature, Str should be -6.

 

[Sir Whiskers]

Just my two cents'...

Simply apply the size modification rules to the basic (3.5) gnome:

Tiny size (+2 BAB, +2 AC, +8 Hide checks, 50% carrying capacity)
Base Speed 20'
Str -6, Dex +2, Con +2
Low-light vision
Weapon Familiarity: Gnomes may treat gnome hooked hammers as martial weapons rather then exotic weapons.
+2 racial bonus on saving throws against illusions
Add +1 to the Difficulty Class for all saving throws against illusion spells cast by gnomes.
+1 racial bonus on attack rolls against kobolds and goblinoids (including goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears
+4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against monsters of the giant type (such as ogres, trolls, and hill giants):
+2 racial bonus on Listen checks
+2 racial bonus on Craft (alchemy) checks
Automatic Languages: Common and Gnome. Bonus Languages: Draconic Dwarven, Elven, Giant, Goblin, and Orc. Gnomes deal more with elves and dwarves than elves and dwarves deal with one another, and they learn the languages of their enemies (kobolds, giants, goblins, and orcs) as well. In addition, a gnome can speak with a burrowing mammal (a badger, fox, rabbit, or the like, see below). This ability is innate to gnomes. See the speak with animals spell description.
Spell-Like Abilities: 1/day -- speak with animals (burrowing mammal only, duration 1 minute). A gnome with a Charisma score of at least 10 also has the following spell-like abilities: 1/day -- dancing lights, ghost sound, prestidigitation. Caster level 1st; save DC 10 + gnome's Cha modifier + spell level. See the spell descriptions.
Favored Class: Bard

Don't forget to enforce smaller weapons, using the rules from the DMG, page 162. No way your tiny gnome is wielding medium-size weapons, and small weapons would be two-handed for it.

Also, while the -6 Str definitely hurts, I think Tiny size balances it nicely. A +2 BAB and AC and +8 bonus to Hide checks would be helfpful for any non-fighter types, especially spellcasters.

 

[Nifft]

Tiny size (+2 BAB, +2 AC, +8 Hide checks, 50% carrying capacity)
Base Speed 20'
Str -4, Cha +2
Low-light vision
Weapon Familiarity: Gnomes may treat gnome hooked hammers as martial weapons rather then exotic weapons.
+2 racial bonus on saving throws against illusions
Add +1 to the Difficulty Class for all saving throws against illusion spells cast by gnomes.
+1 racial bonus on attack rolls against kobolds and goblinoids (including goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears
+4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against monsters of the giant type (such as ogres, trolls, and hill giants):
+2 racial bonus on Listen checks
+2 racial bonus on Craft (alchemy) checks
Automatic Languages: Common and Gnome.
Bonus Languages: Draconic Dwarven, Elven, Giant, Goblin, and Orc. Gnomes deal more with elves and dwarves than elves and dwarves deal with one another, and they learn the languages of their enemies (kobolds, giants, goblins, and orcs) as well. In addition, a gnome can speak with a burrowing mammal (a badger, fox, rabbit, or the like, see below). This ability is innate to gnomes. See the speak with animals spell description.
Spell-Like Abilities: 1/day -- speak with animals (duration 1 minute). A gnome with a Charisma score of at least 10 also has the following spell-like abilities: 1/day -- dancing lights, ghost sound, prestidigitation. Caster level 1st; save DC 10 + gnome's Cha modifier + spell level. See the spell descriptions.
Favored Class: Bard


Sir Whiskers, I like everything except the +2 Con bonus. IMHO a Tiny creature should just not be that tough.

EDIT: However, I like both the bonus Cha and the not-stepping-on-Halfling-toes aspect of dropping Dex bonus and limiting Str penalty to -4. Gnomes can be clumsy, but they're not strong.

-- Nifft

 

[Obryn]

Honestly, I'd give them a little more. Not much, just a little. Remember that as a Tiny creature they have 0 reach and therefore can't effectively make most AoO's without a reach weapon. Plus, they'd draw an AoO whenever making an attack against most creatures.

I think that this drawback, combined with -4 additional to Strength, isn't compensated-for by just extending Speak with Animals.

Just my 2 cents.

-O

 

[Tonguez]

Sir Whiskers, I like everything except the +2 Con bonus. IMHO a Tiny creature should just not be that tough.
-- Nifft

Then how do you explain Rats giving a Fort bonus - see tiny = good con

 

[Jeph]

Those pointed hats they tend to wear make them very hard to balance. Now, if they could just wear buckets on their heads . . .