Tiny grig zombies suck

[Noumenon]

Does it seem weird to anyone else that the maximum number of Small creatures that can attack a Medium creature is eight, but the maximum number of Tiny creatures is two? Since they have to occupy the same square to attack you? You'd expect to be able to get 34 Tiny creatures swarming you at four per square and two in your square.

Also, taking an AoO for doing a charge sucks. Also, it's hard to get three of any kind of token or counter in the same square.

(The zombie grigs were in Goodman Games' Lair of the White Salamander. They looked like fun but they didn't get to use their flying much and they had no fiddles so they were a lot like any other zombie. I did have fun telling the party "You're being attacked by what seems like a group of listless crickets.")

 

[Kask]

Does it seem weird to anyone else that the maximum number of Small creatures that can attack a Medium creature is eight, but the maximum number of Tiny creatures is two? Since they have to occupy the same square to attack you? You'd expect to be able to get 34 Tiny creatures swarming you at four per square and two in your square

When you run into a rule that is stupid, just change it. That's what house rules are about.

 

[irdeggman]

Does it seem weird to anyone else that the maximum number of Small creatures that can attack a Medium creature is eight, but the maximum number of Tiny creatures is two? Since they have to occupy the same square to attack you? You'd expect to be able to get 34 Tiny creatures swarming you at four per square and two in your square.

If they have reach weapons then they can attack adjacent squares and thus you are back to the 8 number.

Also tiny creatures can go 4 to a square without penalty. PHB pg 149.


You can have 16 tiny creatures enjoined in a grapple (unfortunealty it is the same amount as small creatures - since the rule is that creatures 1 or more sizes smaller than you count as 1/2 and you can have up to 4 characters enjoined in a grapple against you).

 

[Runestar]

I think they should have created a custom grig zombie swarm, rather than individual grigs.

 

[Noumenon]

You can have 16 tiny creatures enjoined in a grapple

Maybe that explains why stirges are considered deadly. I've never played them, but based on the grigs they wouldn't be that bad. They don't have reach weapons either, but when they attach they're grappling, so more could fit.

tiny creatures can go 4 to a square without penalty. PHB pg 149.

Two to a square was just when they're fighting with a Medium creature in its space (MM 29). If you could get four in there, that would be plenty because you'd use up the opponent's AoOs a lot better.

 

[Noumenon]

I personally have been using a ton of swarms recently (hill giants with a centipede swarm in their bag, an egg sac full of spider swarms, and Lair of the White Salamander has a swarm of crabs) so handling the tiny creatures as individuals was a nice novelty. One cool thing about it is DR 5/slashing is very good for a little guy like that. The rogue smashed a cricket right against the wall twice and it bounced back until he thought to pull out his dagger.

 

[irdeggman]

Two to a square was just when they're fighting with a Medium creature in its space (MM 29). If you could get four in there, that would be plenty because you'd use up the opponent's AoOs a lot better.

Being in the same square as an opponent does not generate an AoO, moving from a threatened square does. So they generate an AoO when moving into the opponent's square.

Certain actions also generate AoO (like engaging in a grapple).


Are you using 3.0 rules or 3.5 rules?

There is a difference. The 3.5 MM does not have that reference to 2/square for fighting. I was providing 3.5 references so they may not be the same in the 3.0.

But regardless - the PHB rules for combat take precedence over any general rules for combat contained in the MM (a specific monster entry however is specific to that monster and then it takes precedence over the PHB rules for combat).

 

[irdeggman]

Also, taking an AoO for doing a charge sucks. Also, it's hard to get three of any kind of token or counter in the same square.

Charging itself does not generate an AoO, moving out of a threatened square does - but only once for any movement in the round. Other actions, however may themselves generate an AoO.

But still unless a character has Combat Relfexes he can still only take 1 AoO per round total - so if he has a choice of 2+ opponets at least one of them doesn't get an AoO made against them.

 

[Noumenon]

The 3.5 MM does not have that reference to 2/square for fighting.

Mine really does -- for Tiny creatures versus Medium -- on page 29, second column. Including an example with stirges that's so specific, I'd think it would have to override the one sentence in the PHB.

However, if it were four to a square for fighting -- that would be a lot better at conveying a "swarmed" feeling and cutting down on the AoOs. So I think that's the house rule I'm going to use, unless it causes stirges to become way too deadly.

Can zombies take a five-foot step and attack in the same round? I played it that they could.

 

[irdeggman]

pg 29 of the 3.5 MM talks about Bugbears.

Now as for zombies taking a 5 ft step and attacking.

Technically no since they are limited to a single action and can specifically move up to 1/2 their speed and attack only if they make a charge.

Now, realistically a 5 ft step is not really an action (even though it sort of counts as movement, since you can't move and do a 5 ft step).

Now the tiny zombies can't do this because in order to attack they must move into the opponent's square since they do not threaten that square.

This movement generates an AoO. If they could do this via taking a 5 ft step then it would not.