D&D 4E Tips on running Megadungeons in 4e

[S'mon]

Inspired by http://www.tenkarstavern.com/2013/01/does-system-matter-in-world-of.html

Running the traditional 'mega' 'campaign' or 'tentpole' dungeon in 4e can pose some challenges, but IME it can also work well. Where 4e (and 3e/PF) can fall down of course is in length of combat, the fights can suck up most of an evening's play. This then leaves little time for the exploration dynamic - fight/explore/fight/explore - that traditional megadungeons rely on.

Some thoughts/tips:

1) Big Encounters
Where 4e does well is with big dynamic fights with complex terrain. A monster lair of say 15 troglodytes across 4 chambers works well as a single 4e encounter. Umpteen separate minor '1 monster in room' type encounters don't work well in 4e. This is occasionally a problem in running a megadungeon if the PCs would logically encounter a lone, weak monster, but not generally a big issue IME.

2) Expeditionary Play
Linked to #1, 4e can do expeditionary megadungeon play well, with each subsection of the dungeon treated as its own encounter or delve (short series of linked encounters). The players would need to decide "Tonight we assault the Crypt of Eyes!", then you run the Crypt of Eyes as a single big dynamic encounter (if inhabited by a single group of coordinated foes) or delve (if inhabited by several rival groups, unintelligent creatures, etc). On this model the scouting/exploration of the general expanse is preliminary to the assault/delve on a specific locale, and will rarely trigger encounters unless the PCs screw up and get ambushed or blunder into something. Something like Tolkien's Mines of Moria section would work well in 4e - a long period of exploration without combat, followed by an intense series of battles over a brief period.

3) Quest XP Awards
Use the 4e Quest XP awards generously. If the PCs are in the dungeon searching for the Sword of Crom, that is either a Minor or Major quest, and the GM awards XP equivalent to either a monster (Minor) or group of monsters (Major) for quest achievement. This works well in exploratory play if the players select & communicate their goals. Finding stairs down to the next level could be a Minor quest; defeating the BBEG controlling the dungeon level, or rescuing the princess before he sacrifices her to Baphomet, could be a Major quest. Quest level can typically equate to dungeon level, PC level, or primary threat level - I tend to go with threat level, so eg currently my 10th level PCs are aiming to loot the Temple of Emerald Dawn, a 12th level dragon. If they succeed they'll get a level 12 major quest XP award.

4) Using Wandering Monsters
Connected to #2, random encounters need to work a bit differently in 4e than in older versions of D&D. The occasional big solo wandering monster or humanoid long range patrol can work ok as a 4e encounter, and I've occasionally generated random d% - 33 - '1d6 troglodytes' type encounters and had them work well. Often though the random encounter check should be more about whether you alert your enemies, such as the inhabitants of a nearby lair - it's not about a threat that will itself defeat the party, it's about eliminating those two orcs before they alert the entire tribe.

Anyone else have tips for running a megadungeon or similar in 4e?

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

For me, random encounters are pacing encounters. You have some in reserve for when the game slows, or if the PCs try to take a too-early rest, etc.

 

[LostSoul]

I have nothing to add. Well, maybe - I'd suggest basing treasure on encounter level instead of party level. That way you get some kind of risk/reward element to the game. And of course players could choose different dungeon levels.

I really like the idea of expeditionary play - that neatly sidesteps the extended rest issue; you can't really nickel-and-dime the monsters to death (go in, spend all your dailies, kill one or two guys, then retreat; rest & repeat) if the "Crypt of the Elves" is a big, dynamic encounter.

 

[Pour]

My campaign called for a non-traditional dungeon crawl in a portion of Ugoreth, the demon queen Oublivae's Abyssal realm, which I crafted as a true bottomless pit. They plane shifted into an infinite free-fall down the central tube of a shadowy vortex with hurricane winds and bolts of lightning thick as tree trunks. An Epically dangerous hazard in and of itself, the players struggled to stay together and dared the sheltering dungeons which were steadily plummeting through this eternal drop, in actuality the ruins of countless civilizations across countless worlds Oublivae had dragged kicking and screaming into oblivion. Occasionally, these dungeons would change pitch, sometimes turn completely upside down or vertical (requiring multiple maps), but boy was it fun.

Enemies ranged a wide variety of demons and maddened undead across several cultures (I used a Persian, Incan, and Eastern European series of thematic levels), the failed defenders of these many civilizations. NPC allies coming in the form of a few ghosts who recalled enough of their past to lend aid, and a pair of seraphim cornered by an overwhelming force who had boldly come to retrieve a missing archangel.

My philosophy is if the rules don't suit a situation, alter the rules within the edition framework so that they do. I knew minions were going to be key if I wanted the level of gratuitous death necessary for a God of War-esque or Dante's Inferno-esque plunge into the worst dive in the setting. I played a lot with one, two, and three hit minions- in truth, 1-hit minions, then two-hit elites and three-hit solos. I allowed elites and solos their full range of abilities and immunities, just that if they were hit two or three times they were slain. I also vastly increased 1-hit minion damage in accordance with the Nightmare Level damage chart posted by the fourthcore guys about a year ago. Believe me, at level 24 it's needed.

I think everyone agreed the changes were a rousing success. 1, 2, and 3 hit monsters were quite satisfying, especially adding a 'damage threshold', so elites and solos could die on the first hit IF a player dealt over X damage in the single blow, thereby still making damage/power selection acceptably relevant (I wish I had a hard and fast formula for finding that number, but I sort of eyeballed it around half their RAW bloodied value). I also allowed automatic kills on crits to promote guts and blood choking halls up to their knees flavor (it came with a clause where they also had to describe their crit kills as savage as possible for the house rule to apply).

Oublivae herself was a real beeotch, with an aura that forced saves on magic items, failure equating to immediate destruction. Mundane items immediately deteriorated within the same aura. There was some frantic recalculating, and two players really hated the design paradigm, but most really were terrified by it (what's that about hitting them in their pocket books). It took everything they had to finally finish her, and that was after she fled from one dungeon to another, forcing the group to kind of rough it without some key items. Just great fun.

Okay, so in review:

1. Quick, Furious, Bloody Battles: Use 1-hit minions (increase their damage to Nightmare levels, or about their actual level in damage per hit), 2-hit elites and 3-hit solos (elites and solos have the use of all their normal powers and roll for their damages). Elites and solos can be killed in a single blow IF a player meets their damage threshold, usually half their bloodied value. Critical hits automatically kill IF the players also give you a little hack'n'slash description.

2. Dynamic, Fascinating, Interactive Settings: Play up to 4e's greatest strength, the ability to produce some incredible set pieces with hazards, traps, moving/changing terrain, and then add a twist by changing that battlefield yet again on them. Keep them in awe, keep them thinking, keep them on their toes, but especially KEEP THEM MOVING. That said, don't be afraid to include dead-ends, harder and easier avenues to the same goals, and the occasional 'Oh BLEEP' moment, when like the big end boss decides to show up early for a few rounds, the entire dungeon begins to split apart, or something just huge, crazy, and terrifying that makes PCs want to run (and maybe they should).

3. Interesting NPCs, Both Helpful and Harmful: No matter the dungeon crawl, there should be someone or something to talk to, deal with, aid, trick, or steal from. These NPCs usually become one of the most memorable moments of the crawls, and they also add their weight in plot gold when it comes to constructing the appearance of a living, breathing dungeon. I tend for semi-frequent, after or during every 2 or 3 big stretches of fighting, exploring, or disarming, but pepper to taste.

4. Keep Your Finger on the Pulse, Stoke the Pacing, and Roll with It: This is my number one rule, but I put it as number four because it might not be everyone's. I know this sounds crazy, but I don't actually place specific encounters, hazards, or NPCs in specific places on the map. I drop the map, have my documents ready, and we go. I tailor the dungeon on the fly as players explore it, keying off their their predictions/fears (my most trusted resource, particularly when players think of better ideas than I do), their theories on internal logic of the places and story (another trusted source), and my own inspiration in the midst of running. Of course there are instances where, due to mapping, one room with a lava pool in it is obviously the lava encounter, but it's almost a 1 in 7 kind if situation where I'm bound to the map.

 

[KarinsDad]

I started putting together a megadungeon earlier this year and one idea I had was to prevent the encounters from being too close to one another. That seems to be a bit of a problem with WotC designed 4E encounters as is. Is a single door or 50 feet going to prevent other foes from hearing a battle? I also prefer groups of related monsters somewhat close (close enough to be encountered, but not so close that they come to each other's rescue every time when combat is started) to each other separated by some distance to the next unrelated group of monsters (i.e. points of darkness in a large setting). The idea is of an ecology of different "kingdoms of monsters". This creates a certain amount of plausibility as to why the Orcs have not killed off the Troglodytes (the Trogs are too far away and have ambush points set up), but it also allows the DM to add in other game elements later on without having to modify the layout of his dungeon (i.e. I can put a magical statue between the Orcs and Trogs 6 months from now that I never thought up today without having to redraw my dungeon). In this same vein, many monsters should have early warning stations or ambush areas set up that the PCs should encounter, and many monsters should be in areas of food and water sources (shy of undead or constructs or such). The dungeon should feel real.

Another idea I was using is to create most of the dungeon ahead of time (with some details not added right away to make it quicker to design) where the encounters closer to the entrance are both fleshed in better, and also closer in difficulty to PC level, whereas encounters further away are more difficult (although a few encounters could be much easier), but not totally fleshed out. That way, the players can chose almost any direction to go in and the difficulty increases, eventually to the point that it becomes so difficult that they should turn around and try for easier paths. I don't prefer a game where the players know that every encounter is going to be within N-2 to N+2 difficulty. If the PCs head straight north, eventually they will get into N+6 territory (and they should have figured this out while fighting through N+2, N+3, N+4, N+5 territories). The idea is to make the dungeon more organic and less predictable with regard to resource management and player decision making made primarily because they are playing 4E. There should be hints that a tough dragon (or a tribe or Ogres or whatever) is ahead (bones of victims, scratch and scorch marks, etc.), but the idea is to have the players think about what direction they want to go in based on the environment and creatures they encounter and the info/clues they find rather than on "oh well, we're playing 4E, we should be able to get 5 not too tough encounters in today".

And I agree that cool settings are the real key to a megadungeon. About 30% of all encounters (and even some percentage of exploration areas) should have something really cool and/or different about them. Not 100% because that to me is too fantastical and also a lot of work for the DM to come up with so many cool or awesome encounter ideas. Many encounters should just be a group of foes in some area and the distinguishing characteristics are what type of foes they are. But, about a third of encounters should be unique with regard to setting.

Oh, and many monsters should use the magic items that the PCs will eventually acquire. You rarely see that in WotC modules.

 

[S'mon]

I have nothing to add. Well, maybe - I'd suggest basing treasure on encounter level instead of party level. That way you get some kind of risk/reward element to the game. And of course players could choose different dungeon levels.

I really like the idea of expeditionary play - that neatly sidesteps the extended rest issue; you can't really nickel-and-dime the monsters to death (go in, spend all your dailies, kill one or two guys, then retreat; rest & repeat) if the "Crypt of the Elves" is a big, dynamic encounter.

I agree about expeditionary play and the heal/rest mechanic - with a dynamic monster lair you may not even be able to Short Rest until the monsters are defeated. For the kind of 2.5-3 hour sessions I run, I find a single big lair encounter works well as the centrepiece of an evening's play. Total EL, if tailored, is likely to be around +3 or +4 to party level, with most monsters in the region of the party's level.

Re basing treasure on EL - I definitely agree, and I always do this myself.

One thing I have not done in 4e is the classic megadungeon where the top level is suitable for 1st level parties, 2nd level for 2nd level PCs, and on down through the depths. Each dungeon level could have a party level's worth of XP and treasure. Anyone have experience of doing this in 4e?

 

[S'mon]

I started putting together a megadungeon earlier this year and one idea I had was to prevent the encounters from being too close to one another. That seems to be a bit of a problem with WotC designed 4E encounters as is. Is a single door or 50 feet going to prevent other foes from hearing a battle?

Yes, I've frequently experienced that problem with WotC designed dungeons. I was using a modified Dungeon Delve #12 last Monday, and the PCs triggered three encounters worth of Yuan-Ti all at the same time. Since the Yuan-Ti are 13th-14th level and the 6 PCs are 10th it was a bit of a slog; though not too deadly as the group had two leaders/healers.

I think the solution is to embrace the natural dynamic and run lairs designed to function as a single encounter; if the PCs do manage to wipe out half the lair without alerting the other half, well good for them, but that should not be the default.

 

[LostSoul]

One thing I have not done in 4e is the classic megadungeon where the top level is suitable for 1st level parties, 2nd level for 2nd level PCs, and on down through the depths. Each dungeon level could have a party level's worth of XP and treasure. Anyone have experience of doing this in 4e?

I have done this, though not with anything close to a megadungeon. I set up a 5-level dungeon with about 20 rooms in each level. I tried to make the distribution roughly correspond to the random distribution of room contents in the AD&D DMG. At any rate, there are five rooms with monster encounters, EL = dungeon level; 10 treasures rolled randomly on the treasure parcel table (1d10) of the dungeon's level are scattered throughout. (Some monsters have treasure, some don't, and I like having one big "vault" room where there's a bunch of treasure and no monster/trap.)

The levels went from 1st to 5th. After the PCs cleared out the first level, they decided to head down to the fifth. Most PCs were around 2nd level at the time. The exploration down there was pretty intense. The loot and XP were nice, though.

I also used wandering monsters, but didn't design the dungeon well enough to make good use of them. I wasn't sure how they were getting in or out, and I didn't use the rolls for the monsters placed in the dungeon wandering around. The other dungeon that I made up with this method was better in that respect, but I'm still getting the hang of it.

 

[Quickleaf]

[MENTION=463]S'mon[/MENTION]
Those are good observations you've made, and I definitely agree with you about the tweaking needed to account for longer fights.

I am running my group thru Dragon Mountain, which I converted from 2e to 4e over here: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?331204-Dragon-Mountain-(4e-conversion) It is either a small mega-dungeon or just a frickin' big dungeon depending on your perspective. I'll try to extract some of the design principles I've learned from the little I've run so far...

1. Combination of Set-Pieces & Random Encounters
Establishing sub-goals within the dungeon that lead to set-piece fights is, I think, one of the most important things in 4e. Essentially, having mini-bosses that stand out from the easier random encounters, and giving PCs a reason to explore (this ties in with your advice about ample use of quest XP).

2. Random Encounters with Minions & Lower Level Foes
This speeds up combat and makes it far easier to adjudicate PCs avoiding combat thru other means, such as ambushing and one-hit killing most of the enemy force. Also forces enemies to get smarter and use the mega-dungeon to their advantage if they hope to challenge the PCs.

3. Skill Challenges as Pacing Mechanism
Having some kind of exploration skill challenge which PCs must deal with really drives home the feel of a sprawling mega-dungeon and can be tied to other things: random encounters, random check failure tables, the ability to take a rest, etc. The guidelines I worked up for when to make checks are:

1. When the PCs explore off the map
2. When the PCs are in an area with some kind of mounting pressure
3. When the PCs face a challenging area transition
4. When the PCs spend a certain amount of time in the same area

Beyond that, I think much of the advice about mega-dungeons ("jacquaying", sub-goals, distinctive area themes) on the Net is just as true for 4e as it is for any other edition.