D&D 5E To boxed text or not to boxed text

[hanexs]

The problem with language, it's that it's often not at all clear which words are and aren't obscure. I would have thought that marzipan is a word any child would know, for example. And it's called the same thing in most European languages, so it would never have crossed my mind that it would trip up a non-native speaker either.

I disagree, I do not think this is inevitable, I think this is happening intentionally. When I made my above linked post about Tureen, Marzipan and Proboscis, I assumed adventure designers were trying to make their products in accessible language, but I quickly found out that is not the case. In my above linked posts you will find designers proud of using language players will have to "look up in a dictionary". As a teacher I am dedicated to speaking in a plain manner that my students will intuitively understand, so I have a different perspective. I would never use the word "cistern" even if I do understand that some people want to impart medieval terminology.

I buy products for ideas, relationships, tactics, puzzles or challenges that I could not create on my own. I rarely buy it for the opportunity to tell my players to look up words in a dictionary on a Friday night. I honestly think some of the adventure publishers are missing an incredible opportunity, there are many non-native english language speakers who would love d&d if it was more accessible. There were some great adventures in the 4e era that were dedicated to being accessible and easy to run. I loved the idea of having the "encounters" separate from the adventure proper, it made it far less intimidating (sadly that initiative didn't seem to work out as it was linked to all of the other 4e issues).

I think the people who are advocating for bullet points have a point. Tell me whats in this room and I will figure out how to tell them about it. OR write the box text in a clear, direct and accessible way.

 

[Rune]

I disagree, I do not think this is inevitable, I think this is happening intentionally. When I made my above linked post about Tureen, Marzipan and Proboscis, I assumed adventure designers were trying to make their products in accessible language, but I quickly found out that is not the case. In my above linked posts you will find designers proud of using language players will have to "look up in a dictionary". As a teacher I am dedicated to speaking in a plain manner that my students will intuitively understand, so I have a different perspective. I would never use the word "cistern" even if I do understand that some people want to impart medieval terminology.

I buy products for ideas, relationships, tactics, puzzles or challenges that I could not create on my own. I rarely buy it for the opportunity to tell my players to look up words in a dictionary on a Friday night. I honestly think some of the adventure publishers are missing an incredible opportunity, there are many non-native english language speakers who would love d&d if it was more accessible. There were some great adventures in the 4e era that were dedicated to being accessible and easy to run. I loved the idea of having the "encounters" separate from the adventure proper, it made it far less intimidating (sadly that initiative didn't seem to work out as it was linked to all of the other 4e issues).

I think the people who are advocating for bullet points have a point. Tell me whats in this room and I will figure out how to tell them about it. OR write the box text in a clear, direct and accessible way.

I’m all for challenging vocabulary in some contexts, but boxed text isn’t it. The point of boxed text is to paint a picture in the imagination through rhythm and diction. If you have to interrupt the flow to clarify, you’ve defeated the point.

 

[turnip_farmer]

I disagree, I do not think this is inevitable, I think this is happening intentionally. When I made my above linked post about Tureen, Marzipan and Proboscis, I assumed adventure designers were trying to make their products in accessible language, but I quickly found out that is not the case. In my above linked posts you will find designers proud of using language players will have to "look up in a dictionary". As a teacher I am dedicated to speaking in a plain manner that my students will intuitively understand, so I have a different perspective. I would never use the word "cistern" even if I do understand that some people want to impart medieval terminology.

Cistern is not medieval terminology. What do you call the cistern on your toilet?

People do use obscure words intentionally to create an archaic feel, or just because they think it sounds good. But that doesn't mean that's what's happening every time you learn a new word. 'Cistern' is a normal, everyday word.

For the design of published adventures, I agree. Bullet point descriptions of key features are more useful. I would never read boxed text aloud anyway.

But I wouldn't mind if the bullet points included an unfamiliar word. There are free dictionaries online.

 

[hanexs]

Cistern is not medieval terminology. What do you call the cistern on your toilet?

People do use obscure words intentionally to create an archaic feel, or just because they think it sounds good. But that doesn't mean that's what's happening every time you learn a new word. 'Cistern' is a normal, everyday word.

For the design of published adventures, I agree. Bullet point descriptions of key features are more useful. I would never read boxed text aloud anyway.

But I wouldn't mind if the bullet points included an unfamiliar word. There are free dictionaries online.

I would call it a tank. I am never certain if these disagreements are the results of elitism, education or regional dialects, so I did a quick investigation. My father, wife, brother, 10 year old daughter and grandmother had no idea what a cistern was. But, maybe we're all uneducated, or perhaps since I live near New York I have a regional dialect very specific to my obscure area, so I did some more research. I checked google trends to see the use of the word "cistern" vs "tank". The word "Tank" is used roughly 93 times more often worldwide, and 83 times more often than "cistern" in the US. It is also telling that the associated trends with cistern in google are "ancient", and "zelda" while the associated words with "tank" are "inflatable", "toilet" and "pool". If you look up the word "tank" on twitter, you get posts about a hurricane destroying tanks, if you look up the word cistern you get archeology and fantasy games.

Its pretty clear that the word "tank" is more accessible to more people than the word cistern if your target is a large non region specific audience, but I am not sure thats the goal. As you say "dictionaries are free" is the mantra of many adventure designers.

 

[Tonybro001]

I think it's a great tool for less experienced DM. When I was younger, in an age where streaming and YouTube didn't exist, it helped me a lot in my job as a fledging DM and showed me how to set an encounter.

Couldn't agree more. At my regular Friday night club we are getting an influx of new players who have bought the starter box and have stumbled at running their first game. Seasoned DMs who have developed their own style over many sessions will of course not need these training wheels but it is often a crucial aid for the newbie DM. My own personal preference is for this to be limited to describing the scene/room/encounter rather than any NPC interactions although it is often useful to have an opening line from an NPC if it's going to be a dialogue heavy encounter. Just gets the ball rolling quickly.

Interesting to see that the poll is overwhelmingly in favour of boxed text.

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

I would call it a tank. I am never certain if these disagreements are the results of elitism, education or regional dialects, so I did a quick investigation. My father, wife, brother, 10 year old daughter and grandmother had no idea what a cistern was. But, maybe we're all uneducated, or perhaps since I live near New York I have a regional dialect very specific to my area, so I did some more research. I checked google trends to see the use of the word "cistern" vs "tank". The word "Tank" is used roughly 93 times more often worldwide, and 83 times more often than "cistern" in the US.

A tank is also that.

Its use certainly grew over the last 100 years, in parallel with its meaning as a cistern.

It's also the player who takes hits in an MMO, accounting roughly for 13.2 millions google hits.


While I am not qualified to comment on the overall use of vocabulary (though I am not a native English speaker and had only to check tureen), I think the methodology you used for this particular word is flawed.

It is also telling that the associated trends with cistern in google are "ancient", and "zelda" while the associated words with "tank" are "inflatable", "toilet" and "pool". If you look up the word "tank" on twitter, you get posts about a hurricane destroying tanks, if you look up the word cistern you get archeology and fantasy games. Its pretty clear that the word "tank" is more accessible than cistern if your target is a large non region specific audience.

To get to the main topic, I feel a bullet point is better as conveying information since I'll describe scene without breaking to read (and translate on the fly) a boxed text anyway... so any litterary effort to write those text is lost for me anyway.

 

[hanexs]

You're point about the use of the word tank having other meanings is valid and certainly effects the stats. Still there are other way's to describe something that holds water like "container" or "cup". Container is used 65 times more than cistern, but again container has other meanings, perhaps words with more meanings are more accessible? I am not certain, but I guarantee if I ask the students in my classes to name the thing that holds water on their toilet, Cistern will be at the bottom of the list. D&D is full of these words that young adolescents learning a new game must "look up". This is related to box text, because as a DM I see that box and I think I can simply read it, but too often it is filled with words my players do not understand.

 

[Lyxen]

They did, but I felt that most of the time Dungeon text was readable and I usualy could simply read the box text.

As you saw, I was teasing, because I also remember dungeon boxed text to be extremely short and to the point, without the literary effort that we see today. I personally appreciate the effort, as I like descriptions to be evocative and if anything, it enriches my english vocabulary (I'm not a native english speaker but, maybe thanks to boxed text, I have no problem with marzipan, tureen, proboscis or even gazebo). But I understand other points of view, to each his own and preferences are hard to discuss anyway.

 

[Rune]

Another problem with boxed text: It invariably assumes the players will not interrupt it with questions or declarations of action. The accuracy of that assumption is inversely proportional to the length of the boxed text.

And for some reason most adventure-writers do not realize that, when it comes to exposition, less is usually more (thus, most have lengthy boxes of text).

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

You're point about the use of the word tank having other meanings is valid and certainly effects the stats. Still there are other way's to describe something that holds water like "container" or "cup". Container is used 65 times more than cistern, but again container has other meanings, perhaps words with more meanings are more accessible? I am not certain, but I guarantee if I ask the students in my classes to name the thing that holds water on their toilet, Cistern will be at the bottom of the list. D&D is full of these words that young adolescents learning a new game must "look up". This is related to box text, because as a DM I see that box and I think I can simply read it, but too often it is filled with words my players do not understand.

Indeed, there is a strong possibility that word with a wide applicability are more commonly used. As the number of word one knows reflects education level and social background, but on the other hand, having a limited vocabulary doesn't prevent communication, it's possible that words like "container" that can apply to many objects are learnt before the more specialized ones, but it would be very difficult to quantify it. AFAIK, the basic D&D books are also guilty of using specialized vocabulary. I remembe the instruments of the bards to be a cittern, a word that must be more "exclusive" than cistern (but maybe it's just me).

A silly, but maybe funny anecdote on vocabulary use that happened to me recently that translates well into English:

The characters had been ambushed on a slippery bridge on a rainy day, in an ever-rainy metropolis, by creatures of fey origin. I gave them their proper folkloric names, and it was readily understood by the players. During the fight, one of the strongest and largest fey caught the halfing character and threw it over the bridge. Fortunately, the character didn't fall completely thanks to an Acrobatic check... he managed to avoid taking too much damage by catching, as I said, "a protruding gargoyle". To his horror, the next player to act said "A gargoyle? I didn't know there was a gargolye, I cast eldritch blast on the gargoyle". It reminded me of the gazebo classic story, except it happened to me in real life so I got an extra empathy with the original DM of this classic! (and I quickly said "no, not this sort of gargoyle" to clarify).