To grid or not to grid. New staff blog . April 11

[Hussar]

Oh, yeah, we've never had an edition where a fireball might have a larger blast radius simply because of local conditions, like, say, the confined spaces of a goblin warren. Simulationists hate that kind of physics-obeying nonsense.

Really? You actually changed the volume of the fireball because of confined spaces? What edition was this in? Granted, in 3e, you didn't have expanding fireballs (something that was grumbled about rather a lot) but, in your attempt at snark, I believe you missed the point.

In a zone based system, there is nothing delineating a zone other than whatever arbitrary limits the DM sets. So, your fireball in an open space might be any size set by whatever zone size the DM has created.

And you think that, after all the pissing and moaning about 1-1-1 square counting that the sim crowd would let this one pass without comment? Really?

 

[hanez]

For the minion type guards - theater of the mind

For the big baddy on a complex battle field, a picture, a drawn map, a cool looking tile.

But no grids, no counting spaces, no hard and fast scale. I tried that in 4e, and it ruined the game for couple years. Not goin back to that.

 

[Savage Wombat]

Really? You actually changed the volume of the fireball because of confined spaces? What edition was this in?

Not the volume, the area of effect. (Which I'd hope you know.) The volume of a fireball, in AD&D, was fixed at 33 10'cube volumes iirc. The fact that this could cause massive blowback if you assumed that a fireball merely hit everything within 20' of the target burned many a party. Fairly standard mistake, really.

And I think a little snark was called for, considering the tone of the discussion.

 

[WheresMyD20]

From BECMI to 1e to 2e, I played in a lot of groups and not one used a grid. Sometimes minis were used to help visualize position, but never was movement carefully measured out and so on.

It wasn't until 3e came along that I ever saw a D&D group use a grid. IMO, defining combat in terms of a grid was the worst design decision of 3e. RPGs evolved from wargames... this was a major step backwards.

 

[Ratskinner]

From BECMI to 1e to 2e, I played in a lot of groups and not one used a grid. Sometimes minis were used to help visualize position, but never was movement carefully measured out and so on.

It wasn't until 3e came along that I ever saw a D&D group use a grid. IMO, defining combat in terms of a grid was the worst design decision of 3e. RPGs evolved from wargames... this was a major step backwards.

A few years ago, I would have argued with you like mad. Yet, as time and experience with 3e and 4e have passed, I've come to share this position. I sometimes feel that the "grid" is what put D&D on the path to "feeling like a boardgame". Nonetheless, I certainly played and ran enough 3e to say that the grid should be a part of a module.

 

[The Shadow]

Really? You actually changed the volume of the fireball because of confined spaces? What edition was this in? Granted, in 3e, you didn't have expanding fireballs (something that was grumbled about rather a lot) but, in your attempt at snark, I believe you missed the point.

1e and 2e. It was explicitly stated that the volume of the fireball remained constant, and that the pressure would cause it to expand outward until it filled its entire volume.

Fireball was *dangerous* to use in close quarters. But if you were willing to get singed, you could wipe out an entire warren of goblins with it.

And you think that, after all the pissing and moaning about 1-1-1 square counting that the sim crowd would let this one pass without comment? Really?

Actually, and putting on my physicist hat for a moment, the pressureless constant-area fireballs of 3e are much weirder. (Die, catgirls, die!)

 

[Hussar]

1e and 2e. It was explicitly stated that the volume of the fireball remained constant, and that the pressure would cause it to expand outward until it filled its entire volume.

Fireball was *dangerous* to use in close quarters. But if you were willing to get singed, you could wipe out an entire warren of goblins with it.



Actually, and putting on my physicist hat for a moment, the pressureless constant-area fireballs of 3e are much weirder. (Die, catgirls, die!)

Thus my point. Fireballs area of effect and volume in 1e and 2e are identical. Thus, you would never change the area of effect or the volume of a fireball in those editions. 3e changed things so that you didn't have blow back and 4e kept that.

However, no edition has changed the volume of an area of effect for purely metagame constructs like zones.

 

[Pickles JG]

Didn't 1e use different scales outside & inside? That must count as using different areas of effect for a metagame reason.

 

[Hussar]

Didn't 1e use different scales outside & inside? That must count as using different areas of effect for a metagame reason.

1e did use different scales for inside and outside. Inside, 1" (inch) equaled 10 feet. Outside, 1"=30 feet.

However, spell areas did not change. A fireball was a 20 foot radius sphere regardless of where it was cast.

The difference in scale did affect ranges of ranged weapons though. The justification was that you could arc your shot outdoors while you couldn't indoors.