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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 8511338" data-attributes="member: 87792">In my experience it has yet to catch up with 1e in terms of bloat. And I don't mean 1e including all the sourcebooks, I mean just the core three rulebooks of 1e. It certainly doesn't have as many subsystems or lookup takes and it certainly isn't as awkward to mesh those subsystems together as it is for 1e. And even if you think (IMO erroneously) it's more bloated than the three core rulebooks it's a lot less bloated than 1e is if you include the utter mess that was Unearthed Arcana.5e was bloated from the moment it was published just because it's a mainline D&D. There are few other systems that would even try to fill three three hundred and twenty (or whatever) page rulebooks. Indeed I'm trying to think of any modern games I own that is the size of one of those rulebooks.What this means is that even after more than seven years of supplements 5e is the least bloated the main D&D then published has been since the late 1970s. Yes, it is headed in the direction of bloat. This is inherent in being a D&D. But by the standards of historic D&Ds it's only just approaching the starting line.They're doing the right thing with Monsters of the Multiverse to reduce bloat without reducing complexity; they're putting the spells in the monster statblocks so you almost always need only one page to run a monster.And subclasses are the least toxic form of bloat because they don't show up in random places and each player only gets one of them. If a subclass is added to the design space then it's only relevant if someone's playing it, and it's one in, one out for any given game. Each time a spell is added to the game it's worse because it could crop up on multiple PCs or even monsters and because it can grind games to a halt as people flip through books to look up their spells while your subclass is always with you. And feats and non weapon proficiencies have major knock on effects sometimes.</blockquote>

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