To Psi or Not to Psi?

[Felon]

The Expanded Psionics book looms on the horizon, and the big question in my mind is this: will psionic characters add anything unique or different to the party? I was disenchanted with what I saw of the 3e Psi Handbook because it just didn't seem that having a psion or psionic warriors had any niche of their own to fill. As a player, I didn't see new venues for interesting character design opening up, and as a DM I didn't see any new dimensions of gameplay that would made make psionics worth the effort of learning all the new classes, feats, manifestations, attack/defense modes, & psionic items--especially if in the end all you wind up are a bunch of guys who co-opt the roles of clerics and wizards.

So what do you guys think? Are we just going to see guys who cast psionic versions of dimension door, levitate, and dominate monster? Are the new psionic classes going to continue to co-opt core class roles like fighter and rogue without bringing anything fresh to the table?

 

[reiella]

I seriously doubt that they will introduce any new significant 'role' to fill that couldn't already be filled by either a straight spellcaster or a multiclass spellcaster/other class type.

Their added benefit is for the most part, just greater versatility in what they can do with their powers known.

Of course, there are many base classes that don't really serve or fill any niche of their own. They fill a shared niche of others.

After all, consider, most of the 'fighting' type base classes. The Monk and Barbarian are often really just attempting to fill the role of the Fighter, except they may have other slightly odd quirks that lets them fill some other (minor) role better (the Monk's skill points, the Barbarian's wilderness proficencies).

 

[SylverFlame]

I found that the Psi classes functioned best in smaller parties. For instance, by taking Psi-Warrior, you essentially get a fighter-mage without the multi-classing. This can be huge for a small party of three or four people. You may not be as powerful as a fighter or mage, but you can fill a bit of the roles fairly well. Also, a Psi-Warrior makes a great replacement for a fighter.

As for creating new roles for the party, I really don't think that was ever on the "to do" list for the Psi books. I think of them as a little bit of flavour and something a bit different from the classic.

I don't know if I'll buy the 3.5 PsiHB, as I have the 3e one and from what I've been hearing, I'm not overly impressed. However, I will consider it once I see the final cut.

 

[Felon]

After all, consider, most of the 'fighting' type base classes. The Monk and Barbarian are often really just attempting to fill the role of the Fighter, except they may have other slightly odd quirks that lets them fill some other (minor) role better (the Monk's skill points, the Barbarian's wilderness proficencies).

OK, let me use the monk as an example of what I'm talking about. The monk is a hedge fighter. He's not the heavy hitter that other warriors are, but his enhanced movement capabilities as well as his defensive class features give him special roles that a fighter can't fill. He's the guy you can count on to not be floored by a lich's spells or the mind flayer's mind blast, and he can roll right past their guards in order to reach them. The class has more than its share of problems but at least it's got a niche. He gets a chance to really shine once in a while.

I see the psychic warrior as being more like a paladin, as it fills the "supernatural warrior" role. For the most part, a paladin just hits things, but he has some defenses against magical attacks and can cast spells to better combat foes with supernatural abilities. Does a psychic warrior ever outhsine a paladin?

Likewise, the introduction of the sorcerer into the 3e added a new venue for PC's to explore. Fundamentally similar to wizards, but some mechanical differences that change the way a player designs his character.

Their added benefit is for the most part, just greater versatility in what they can do with their powers known.

So does that greater versatility with a single power simply equate to a spellcaster knowing a bunch of related spells? Do psionicists have different types of attacks that you can't get through arcane magic? Do they have some utility or restorative effects that you can't get through divine magic?

In short, when does a psionicist have a chance to shine?

 

[RangerWickett]

Well, in my game I use Malhavoc's "Mindscapes," and I find it really adds some nice flavor. All of the psionic entities in my world are creations of the mind, or of dreams, and not just monsters with different types of magic, so the fact that these rules provide a realm where thought is reality really appeals to me.

In fact, the session I just ran, despite it being a bit of a failed experiment, was set entirely in an altered mindscape. Basically, the metacreationist in the party, who just learned this lovely power called Impressa (which basically lets you create a convincing duplicate of a person, who is a thrall to you) was discreetly compelled to use his psionic powers to create an ectoplasmic reality around the party, and combined with some other outside interference, the PCs spent the majority of the last session having their heads screwed with because they didn't know what they were seeing was fake.

Now, the PC metacreationist is a mischevious gnome, so the guy trying to control him and make the ectoplasmic world kill off the party kept running into problems, because the gnome's mind was inherently silly and non-aggressive. It ran like an episode of Farscape at times, with bizarre symbolism and lots of hints that things were amiss. The best part came at the end when the PCs started trying to cast things like 'dominate person' on . . . well, basically, on the world, hoping they'd manage to override the domination that was making the party's psion create these dangerous situations.

We ran short on time, just as they were about to face the major villain, who had to put himself into the reality so he could just kill them the old fashioned way (because the gnome kept making his Will saves to keep the mind monsters away). Of course, the world will be shaping to this villain's whims (he's a monk 6/psion 14), so the fight ought to be cool when we run it next week.

Anyway . . . I'm not sure what the XPsHB will offer, but Mindscapes is very cool.

 

[Spatula]

Likewise, the introduction of the sorcerer into the 3e added a new venue for PC's to explore. Fundamentally similar to wizards, but some mechanical differences that change the way a player designs his character.

The same is true of the psion. Similar to wizards, but some mechanical differences. Aside from that, while the wizard & the sorcerer have the exact same spell lists, the psion is better at mind control & divination than the wizard/sorcerer.

Does a psychic warrior ever outhsine a paladin?

A fully powered-up psywar will outshine any equal-level fighter-type. The differences between the psywar and paladin are fairly significant - the psywar is a full 'caster', is a spontaneous caster, and has a nice variety of enhancement powers to choose from. Furthermore, the psywar gets bonus feats which is a definite advantage over the paladin and barbarian, and also gets access to the psionic feats which allows one to break some of the rules of the game (charging up walls, stopping moving foes with an AoO, making melee attacks as touch attacks, etc.).

 

[Felon]

A fully powered-up psywar will outshine any equal-level fighter-type. The differences between the psywar and paladin are fairly significant - the psywar is a full 'caster', is a spontaneous caster, and has a nice variety of enhancement powers to choose from. Furthermore, the psywar gets bonus feats which is a definite advantage over the paladin and barbarian, and also gets access to the psionic feats which allows one to break some of the rules of the game (charging up walls, stopping moving foes with an AoO, making melee attacks as touch attacks, etc.).

Hmm. Now this is not what I wanted to hear. :\ It would be cool to hear about some scenarios where the psychic warrior excels, but just to hear that at full power a psywar can outperform every other warrior at their peak certainly makes it sound over-the-top (I sure never warmed-up to feats like Deep Impact). I want them to have their own roles, not to displace the roles of other classes. I certainly have that concern with the Soulknife displacing the rogue.

 

[Wolf72]

I had a psi-war dwarf ... he wasn't quite the stand up basher of a normal fighter but was able to pull off some pretty nifty tricks.

did he add anything? dunno, but it was another option and my psionic powers helped throw the bad guys off balance once in a while.

 

[reiella]

Hmm. Now this is not what I wanted to hear. :\ It would be cool to hear about some scenarios where the psychic warrior excels, but just to hear that at full power a psywar can outperform every other warrior at their peak certainly makes it sound over-the-top (I sure never warmed-up to feats like Deep Impact). I want them to have their own roles, not to displace the roles of other classes. I certainly have that concern with the Soulknife displacing the rogue.

THe Psy Warrior outclassed the other warriors in the same way the Cleric did in 3.0.

It remains to be seen how the revision affects it, but I suspect that the PsyWars one weakness will be largely diminished (Psi Combat was a liability).

The only specialization niche that is solely the psions is Psi Combat.

Out of curiosity, what did you think of the three new core classes in Complete Warrior?

 

[Mac Callum]

Hmm. Now this is not what I wanted to hear. :\ It would be cool to hear about some scenarios where the psychic warrior excels, but just to hear that at full power a psywar can outperform every other warrior at their peak certainly makes it sound over-the-top (I sure never warmed-up to feats like Deep Impact). I want them to have their own roles, not to displace the roles of other classes. I certainly have that concern with the Soulknife displacing the rogue.

The balance is in the endurance. Fighter feats and Sneak Attack don't run out of power points. After all, Wizards outshine Fighters and Rogues in the round they get off their Empowered Fireball, and then they're spent. Same for Psi-guys.

I'm sure the sitation where the Psi-guys excel will be as dependant on their power and feat selection as it may be on the base class, if not more. Future threads will be comparing psi-specific feats, powers and "builds" - and those threads will be more helpful.

I think that it's also very campaign specific. Most campaign settings (Dark Sun being the exception) really didn't have a place for Psi; thus psi players were more likely to feel disconnected from the game. Eberron may help in this department. Otherwise it will be up to the DM (more so than usual, that is) to make sure the Psi players have their day in the sun.