To what degree is the Realms still Greenwood's?

[Mercurius]

Hi all,
First time poster, long-time occasional browser (going back to the pre-3e Eric Noah daze).

A question I've often wondered is to what degree the Forgotten Realms are Ed Greenwood's. We're about to see the 4th version of it, although it really is only two main versions--1e through 3e are pretty similar, with 4e being a truly new version (so from now on I'll call the former FRv1 and the latter FRv2).

I own a battered copy of the original FR box set that I purchased fully two decades ago. In my mind this is the quintessentially Greenwoodian Forgotten Realms. As the old supplements came out, more and more contributors fleshed out the world--although it is was difficult to tell to what degree they diverged from the original Greenwood canon.

(As a side note, anyone remember the little snafu with the first "Old Empires" supplement where the cities had populations way beyond what they, as pre-industrial cities, should have? I believe Calimport weighed in at six million!).

Although I've been out of the RPG gig for most of the last five years, it seems to me that the 3e FR book still remains an exemplar of the high quality campaign setting supplement. Most of the hardcover supplements continued that trend (and I was pleased to find out that many of them can be had online for less than a quarter of their cover price as remainders or used copies--I just bought the Shining South, Lost Empires, and Waterdeep for $25 including shipping).

A couple months ago, when I heard that 4e was coming out, my interest in RPGs was re-perked. When I read the Dragon article "Forgotten Realms: Year of the Ageless One", I was surprised just how far the apple fell from the tree. I like the new setting, but I do wonder how much of it--if any--is Ed Greenwood.

So back to my question: How much of the Realms is Ed Greenwood, in the past and now? My assumption is that the first box set is 100% Greenwood, with that percentage going down the years. But how much is he involved with in this new darker Spellplagued Realms?

 

[Elsenrail]

20%? I guess... and I'm happy about it. I've alwayes disliked (hated?) the uber-NPCs the Realms are full of... the majority of them made by Ed. I'm really grateful to him for creating the Realms, but I don't find his writing something of high quality. After reading his story in "Realms of War", I really understand WHY he should not have much influence on the setting. The whole book is great, his piece of writing the worst of it.

 

[Mercurius]

You can get a sense of how a game designer might DM based upon their designed setting. And yes, I agree that the FR are filled with "uber-NPCs", which makes me think that Greenwood might have had (or has) a railroading streak (The PCs are about to be slain by a drow army when, seemingly out of nowhere, Elminster shows up with a handful of Meteor Swarms!).

But do you, or does anyone, know if he still has a role? I'm assuming he is at least being consulted, but that might just be polite for "We're going to do what we like, but we thought we'd let you know just out of faux courtesy."

 

[Imban]

Hmm. Well, the Realms will always be Greenwood's, but I'd say that the 4e Realms has yeah, only about 10-20% in common with "his" Realms that he develops at home, if that. Not that that's a problem, mind you.

After reading his story in "Realms of War", I really understand WHY he should not have much influence on the setting. The whole book is great, his piece of writing the worst of it.

At least in my opinion, Ed Greenwood's always been a much better worldbuilder than author, and the Realms authors (who are all much better authors than worldbuilders, even if some of them have been downright poor authors) are the ones who should have less influence on the setting.

 

[Glyfair]

My assumption is that the first box set is 100% Greenwood, with that percentage going down the years.

After reading some recent discussions about this, I believe the first box set is not "100% Greenwood." It is probably more his than the Eberron Campaign Setting was Keith Baker's, though.

Another thing to consider is that while the first Greyhawk campaign setting book was close to 100% Gygax, it wasn't 100% his personal Greyhawk campaign. It seems to have been a campaign setting he loosely based on his, and his gaming group's, personal Greyhawk campaign.

And yes, I agree that the FR are filled with "uber-NPCs", which makes me think that Greenwood might have had (or has) a railroading streak (The PCs are about to be slain by a drow army when, seemingly out of nowhere, Elminster shows up with a handful of Meteor Swarms!).

I could be wrong, but my understanding is that much of that Greenwood doesn't take credit for. He may have made them, but he may not have been the one responsible for their power level.

 

[Jack99]

After 20 years of novels and game books, how far has the published realms changed from your original campaign world? That was a question for Greenwood, in an interview brought in Kobold Quarter nr3.

His answer: (short form) We have piled up a lot of detail, and have made a lot of character come alive, but things haven't really changed much from my original concept. It's been coloring in details, not wrenching changes.

Edit: Misread your question. From what I read, he seems fairly involved. While he certainly doesn't create everything, even by a wide margin, he has still done lots of the framework, and then others fill it out.

 

[Sitara]

Actually there was a pretty big change from 1E to 2E; the time of troubles. That never happened in greenwoods realms.

Frankly the less greenwood has to do with 4E the better. I mean honestly..even elministers pipe and pieweed are magical. Thats just sick.

 

[Mercurius]

The problem it seems that many folks have with Greenwood is the tendency towards cheesy cliche; on the other hand, a lot of people like the "warm and fuzzy" classic fantasy feel...which seems to be changing.

My sense from what folks are saying is that good ole Ed is really just a consultant now. I am just wondering if he has any veto power, or if it is out of courtesy only.

 

[Set]

Hasn't been since the '70s. An endless parade of other writers have thrown their own ideas into the Realms and it's become quite the melting pot, with settings such as Kara-Tur and Al-Qadim strapped onto the main continent like extra bags of gold on an already fully-laden mule.

 

[Voss]

Hasn't been since the '70s. An endless parade of other writers have thrown their own ideas into the Realms and it's become quite the melting pot, with settings such as Kara-Tur and Al-Qadim strapped onto the main continent like extra bags of gold on an already fully-laden mule.

80s. The commercial version of the Realms isn't that old.

Glyfair is correct as well. The grey box was not 100% Ed. The Moonshaes (and Bhaal, I believe) were tacked on by Niles (?) for reasons that I'm not clear on. Possibly they had his novel submission and just decided to throw it into the new setting.