ToB vs Core Classes

[Nifft]

How have those changes worked out in play? They read well.

It's hard to say. We haven't tried to break the ToB classes very badly, so I never saw them "broken" in practice. But I'm a conservative worry-wart -- I nerf magic missile for example, much to the annoyance of one of our party's Wizards.

Even the Divine Spirit school looks balanced when you consider that the Crusader can't practically Power Attack very often, because he's going to be taking Stone Power to "complete" his Delayed Damage Pool class feature. It's kind of refreshing to see a Strength-based melee dude without Power Attack, and who wouldn't be better with it.

So, like I said before: I've had no problems at all. ToB is better balanced than a lot of the spells in the splatbooks, with which I've had plenty of problems. :\

Cheers, -- N

 

[blargney the second]

Not even slightly. It either comes up not at all (in which case the Warblade wasted one of his very few slots)

This is a very significant point: preparing MoPMind is a huuuuge opportunity cost for a warblade. I got fed up with having it prepared and not using it for fight after fight, so I got the sorceress to start casting color spray right over top of me just so I could use the bloody counter.
-blarg

 

[blargney the second]

It's kind of refreshing to see a Strength-based melee dude without Power Attack, and who wouldn't be better with it.

Heh.. I've actually got a Strengthy crusader with neither Power Attack nor Stone Power. He's all about the Combat Expertise and making the enemy miss him.

 

[Darklone]

Nifft, there's that White Raven high level strike thingy that stuns without a save (plus damage)... has this been errataed or did I miss something in the text?

 

[styker]

Hmm... i´ll adopt this idea, use the ToB but warning my players that i can change some things during the campaign. One question that i cant understand is: About fluffy, what´s the diference between fighter and warblade, specially to some DM that let the fighter get some maneuvers.

 

[Nail]

Not even slightly. It either comes up not at all (in which case the Warblade wasted one of his very few slots), or the Enchanter / Illusionist / gaze-attack critter / dominate-at-will Vamprie manages to throw a Will save more than once every 2-3 rounds.

And then the party hits 16th level and everyone walks around with a mind blank all day.

Cheers, -- N

We've been playing my new campaign for 14 months. We started at 1st level, and now the PCs are 9th (-ish). 16th level is still quite a ways off. Mind blank is hardly a relevant point, at least for us. Neither is the "He'll never use it" argument (IMO). It's kinda like saying nuclear warheads are not a balance issue, 'cause no one but the U.S.A. has ever used them.

I spent about 4 levels of playing time throwing multiple -Will save encounters at the party, to challenge the Warblade. Generally speaking, making the Warblade (with Moment of Perfect Mind) break a sweat required 3 Will saves in 3 rounds.

Honestly, how often can that happen without looking contrived?

Moreover, that meant the other party memebers were even more likely to fail the Will saves. So, to make the Warblade sweat, I had to hose the rest of the PCs. Very unfun.....so finally I nerfed the manuever. It's just not worth the trouble.

 

[Nail]

One question that i cant understand is: About fluffy, what´s the diference between fighter and warblade, specially to some DM that let the fighter get some maneuvers.

??? I don't quite understand your question.

If the Ftr gains manuevers (through feats, I'll assume you mean), the Ftr is still much weaker. Cause? Fewer manuevers, not refreshable, and lots of prerequisites for the higher level manuevers.

 

[Bad Paper]

Overpowered or overconfident?

As the player of the martial adepts that died (swordsage and crusader), I can say "overconfident," in the case of the crusader, and "unlucky," in the case of the swordsage. The hobgoblin swordsage 6 died from a circle of death, and the aasimar crusader 7 died from making sweet love to a spectre. Thankfully, spectres only spawn humanoids, not outsiders.

(The cleric died as a result of, um, shall we say, inconsistent DMing. It was the fighter that *should* have died, changing the dynamics of the combat, causing the cleric to flee, yadda yadda.)

I currently have a goliath warblade 6, and he's kicking piles of ass. Powerful build and mountain movement are awesome things to have. The fact that he's a warblade doesn't really change a whole lot, except that disarming strike has proven to be quite handy!

There is a waraxe-maxed-out dwarven fighter in the party, and his performance is steady and strong. He makes use of his full iterative attacks more often, and the martial adepts do more move-action / maneuver stuff.

 

[Nifft]

Neither is the "He'll never use it" argument (IMO). It's kinda like saying nuclear warheads are not a balance issue, 'cause no one but the U.S.A. has ever used them.

That wasn't my argument. My argument is that there will be fights where he never needs to make a Will save, and in those fights, he has merely wasted 1/3 to 1/5 of his Maneuver slots.

So if the maneuver is disproportionately useful in some fights, it balances out by being totally useless in other fights.

3 Will saves in 3 rounds.

Honestly, how often can that happen without looking contrived?

I dunno. Beholders can hit you with that many Will saves in one round. Something with a Gaze attack can (and will) hit everyone with 3 Will saves in 3 rounds. Off the top of my head, a Spirit Naga can throw two each round (Charm Gaze + a spell).

But the point is that you don't have to see 3 Will saves in every fight. Whenever you don't see any Will saves, consider him self-nerfed.

Moreover, that meant the other party memebers were even more likely to fail the Will saves. So, to make the Warblade sweat, I had to hose the rest of the PCs. Very unfun.....so finally I nerfed the manuever. It's just not worth the trouble.

+6 to Will save is still pretty darn sweet, but (unfortunately) even more tasty for dip-munchkins, since that maneuver now does not require any ranks in Concentration.

Cheers, -- N

 

[styker]

??? I don't quite understand your question.

If the Ftr gains manuevers (through feats, I'll assume you mean), the Ftr is still much weaker. Cause? Fewer manuevers, not refreshable, and lots of prerequisites for the higher level manuevers.

What i mean is, what is the diference between the fighter and the warblade like characters roles? Can the fighter be considered the TANKER and the Warblade the "damage-man" ?