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Tomb of Horrors

Henry

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ehren37 said:
Most of those rely on your DM not being a tool. In other words, for DM's running these type of adventures, they will fail. Face it, its for an era of sad geeks who LOVE to squeal "Got you!" at their players for bing so stupid as to do anything. And if they dont do anything? Well, you can cheat and "Get them" anyways.

Thank you for insulting me and my entire generation of gamers by implication. :) I'll just have to say I know first hand proof that your assumptions do not hold for all gamers who love the original or revised TOH, nor for even the majority of them.

If, in the rare event you have a fair DM who lets the spells work, I dont really consider asking the DM what to do "using your head".
...and I'd also not call using these spells "asking the DM what to do." If so, then do you ever use these spells in your campaigns, and if so, is it considered cheating to you and your groups? Those spells are DESIGNED for being "knowledge from the gods," which, naturally, would have to come from the referee of the world in a D&D game.
 

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paradox42

First Post
I ran the 3.5E version as part of a campaign (this was a party of Evil characters, so as a DM I felt no remorse whatsoever about giving the unholy bastards what-for. :D). I worked it into the game by having the Tomb itself be a mental construct of an NPC who was hiding treasure the PCs desperately needed; since the NPC was psionic and had access to many other psionic helpers, I postulated that the treasure was hidden inside his mind- specifically inside a Dreamscape (as in, Region of Dreams) built out of his fears. Or should I say- Horrors? ;)

So, the NPC was a wood elf, and with the party Telepath using a Mind Probe they learned something of what was inside before they ever Plane Shifted to the swamp and hill. Being a wood elf, his fears were: underground, mechanical weapons and traps, undead, and (being as he was psionic and not a magic-user) magic. :) This dream idea gave me the advantage, I figured, of not needing to explain the weirdness and rule-bending encounters inside.

The party made it out with only 3 (permanent) deaths out of 8 PCs, and my play experience matches that of Mark Hope and other posters in the thread- careful play saved their butts several times. I should mention that DMs who are planning to run this for psionic PCs should carefully watch how they handle the Touchsight power, since that power by its normal nature can ruin many of the surprises in the Tomb (particularly the locations of secret doors and pits). I rule in my games that Touchsight doesn't let you see past walls unless there are gaps to feel through, like doors, and even then only to the next door if the area beyond is small- in other words, you can at best "see" only one room ahead. Also, the manifester still must make Search and Spot checks to notice anything, though in a dungeon like ToH it's often easy for careful PCs to spend the time to take 20. Another possible problem power is Astral Construct, which (in its 1 PP version) lets a manifester at 9th level create tens of disposable scouts to send blundering into traps and keep the party safe.

My PCs certainly took advantage of taking 10 and taking 20 on Searches with Touchsight- the telepath in question has both maxed-out INT and Search, and some skill-boosting items to boot, so his modifier at the time was +20, thus allowing him to reliably find anything with a DC of 30 or less. However, this came back to bite the party on their behinds at the secret door leading into the green slime room, because the players got so used to the telepath sensing things right away by taking 10 that when he didn't, they assumed they'd missed something earlier in the dungeon and actually backtracked to several other traps they'd bypassed before (including the lava pit)!

One PC death was the party Wilder, who was lost to the green devil face in the entry passage- but not, I emphasize, in the party's first trip down the corridor! He lost his gear to the teleport arch in the Chapel of Evil, and though he was still able to use his powers in the naked condition, he had lost some power (losing a Cloak of CHA when you're a CHA-based caster-type really hurts). So when the party was backtracking after the failure to find the secret door to the agitation room, he volunteered to explore the mysterious dark tunnel in the devil's mouth that (as far as the party was concerned) was the last unexplored passage in the dungeon. When he went in, and the party Mindlink with him broke, and he didn't come back out after waiting for a minute or two, they decided to leave the devil alone again and go back over the dungeon with a fine-toothed comb (i.e. take 20 on Searching this time).

They managed to avoid nastiness elsewhere in the dungeon, though I was amused to see them running from the sword-and-shield constructs in that room (they could have easily taken on those constructs and won if they'd tried), and still more amused to watch how much trouble they went to to avoid touching the malachite step in the antechamber before the mithril valves (they were convinced that the riddle had meant anything green must be avoided like the plague).

Then, finally, they met the demilich skull, with only one weapon in the party able to bypass its DR- the +1 keen kukri the ranger kept "just in case" she ever got into melee (she's an archer specialist). How mystified they were when they realized that this weapon, which was notably less powerful than the party tank's ghost touch greatsword, was hurting the skull and the mighty greatsword was doing next to no damage! The thought that the skull might have some form of DR not mentioned in standard rules never seemed to occur to the players, and they didn't have Know Vulnerabilities handy so they never learned just how it was able to hurt the skull. :D The skull took out the telepath to a Soul Suck on round one, and then proceeded to take down other party members one by one until only three were left- then, finally, the assassin-wannabe- the one without Power Attack (which the tank had used with the kukri before his own failed save to the Suck)- managed to deal a final blow.

They got lucky in the end, in other words- and luck is necessary in that fight! PCs at the recommended level for the converted adventure probably can't win otherwise. But the adventure is a highly memorable one, regardless, and the surviving party members (two of the Sucked victims failed the Will save to come back to life, thus making the party's tally of perma-deaths 3) learned some interesting new tactics.
 

Nebulous

Legend
I've run 2nd ed. Return to the Tomb of Horrors, which features the original tomb completely intact. it's still one of my favorite adventures, although i did take the time to download and print the 3.5 version, just in case i ever want to run it again. I don't think anyone died, i toned down the lethality slightly, and added in some new twists. All in all a great time.
 

Flexor the Mighty!

18/100 Strength!
ehren37 said:
Most of those rely on your DM not being a tool. In other words, for DM's running these type of adventures, they will fail. Face it, its for an era of sad geeks who LOVE to squeal "Got you!" at their players for bing so stupid as to do anything. And if they dont do anything? Well, you can cheat and "Get them" anyways.

If, in the rare event you have a fair DM who lets the spells work, I dont really consider asking the DM what to do "using your head".

Can you post without being insulting?
 

Mark Hope

Adventurer
Cool summary, paradox42 :). I especially like the idea of setting the Tomb in a dreamscape - great idea.

Oh, and this:
paradox42 said:
...and still more amused to watch how much trouble they went to to avoid touching the malachite step in the antechamber before the mithril valves (they were convinced that the riddle had meant anything green must be avoided like the plague)...
cracked me up no end. Players - ya gotta love 'em :).

They got lucky in the end, in other words- and luck is necessary in that fight! PCs at the recommended level for the converted adventure probably can't win otherwise.
I'd have to agree with you here. Luck seems to play a big part in things - although a healthy dose of paranoia goes a long way as well.
 

Jupp

Explorer
Justin Bacon said:
Let's be clear: This is a module which explicitly breaks the rules without any rhyme or reason. [/url]

Ok, and what is the problem with that? In the old DMGs there was that line about rules and how close you should follow them. Something like "They're guidelines, not binding rules"....As if a DM would always follow the rules :eek:
 

Melan

Explorer
ehren37 said:
Most of those rely on your DM not being a tool. In other words, for DM's running these type of adventures, they will fail. Face it, its for an era of sad geeks who LOVE to squeal "Got you!" at their players for bing so stupid as to do anything. And if they dont do anything? Well, you can cheat and "Get them" anyways.

If, in the rare event you have a fair DM who lets the spells work, I dont really consider asking the DM what to do "using your head".
Insulting bull----.
 

Henry said:
Thank you for insulting me and my entire generation of gamers by implication. :) I'll just have to say I know first hand proof that your assumptions do not hold for all gamers who love the original or revised TOH, nor for even the majority of them.

And I have first hand proof that it is true. I honestly cant stand fellow grognards for their perpetual whining attitudes, their constant condescension towards any new players and ideas, and the general attitude of "power tripping" that accompanied DM'ing throughout the early 80's. I love the insulting remarks on the part of the module's supporters that any attempt to be fair is "coddling".

God forbid anything Gygax did be criticized. You'll be labeled a clueless young punk (because no one else would dare question HIS genious) and have a gaggle of geeks riding their rascals to break down your door.
 
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painandgreed

First Post
I ran the 1E module as part of an ongoing campaign. It was getting fairly high level (low teens) and the PCs were shopping about for near artifact level magic items with specific special abilities they wanted. I said one existed that they had found rumor of and it lay in the middle of a tomb of a demi-lich. They had all played the module but not in years, so I told them that they could not look at the module but they could use any meta-gaming knowledge of it they already had as stuff their characters had learned researching rumors and legends. They got halfway down the first corridor, discovered that a secret door wasn't where they thought it was supposed to be*, and promptly lost their cool and left.

*Funny thing was, I remembered the secret door being exactly where they did. We had all originally played the module as part of different gaming groups while in high school (this was college) so it wasn't a case of all being under one DM who changed things. Yet, the module left no doubt that the secret door wasn't where we remembered it being. This has happened other times too. All the players will remember a certain rule, even the exact same wording, and have learned it under different DMs and locals, but checking up on the rule will reveal something completly different in the RAW.
 

Flexor the Mighty!

18/100 Strength!
ehren37 said:
And I have first hand proof that it is true. I honestly cant stand fellow grognards for their perpetual whining attitudes, their constant condescension towards any new players and ideas, and the general attitude of "power tripping" that accompanied DM'ing throughout the early 80's. I love the insulting remarks on the part of the module's supporters that any attempt to be fair is "coddling".

God forbid anything Gygax did be criticized. You'll be labeled a clueless young punk (because no one else would dare question HIS genious) and have a gaggle of geeks riding their rascals to break down your door.

That is one hell of a chip you have on your shoulder. Sheesh. This thread and your posts in the thread about older D&D modules shows a lot of hostility towards older players and editions of D&D. Did you have some bad D&D experiences in the early 1980's?

So are the posters who are relating they have ran it and had fun, or finished it without being killed, the sad geeks you spoke of earlier? Are they power tripping liars? The original is the king of all meat grinder dungeons, the revision is much less so. The new edition, good or bad, is a bit less deadly than 1e due to the lack of as many "save or die" situations. I can see how some would say that coddles the players since it shows a distinct difference in basic gameplay assumptions. I'm not sure how that is viewed as a personal insult in any event, unlike some of your comments.
 

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