Tome of Battle (Bo9S) Initiator Level

[Carpe DM]

Do you really get to take one level of swordsage, but take higher level abilities? Your initiator level *for purposes of what abilities you can select* is listed as being your Martial Adept level plus half your other class levels. So, an 8th level Paladin, 1st level Swordage could take 5th level Swordsage abilities for that one-level dip.

Everyone in our campaign (a Soulborn / Fighter, a Rogue / Swashbuckler, a Knight) is taking one level of Warblade or Swordsage, and are getting high level abilities in one shot.

This seems to make Swordsage the ultimate one-level dip. Is this right?

(I know Bo9s has some problems balance-wise. That is not the question.)

 

[RangerWickett]

You use half your level from other classes. So Paladin 8/Swordsage 1 can select abilities as if he were a 5th level swordsage. This gives access to 3rd level maneuvers. It's still pretty good, but not crazy broken.

 

[Zurai]

Yeah, giving 9th level characters a 1/encounter (essentially) 6d6 fire damage ranged touch attack really isn't a big deal. At most, a 1 level dip in a martial adept class will net you a few level 5 maneuvers and a level 1 stance - and that's if you delay the MA class til level 19 or 20.

 

[Darklone]

Warblade is better in that regard since that class can recover their maneuvers in one round.

 

[Three_Haligonians]

Don't forget that a lot of the better moves have prerequisites... usually one or two others.. so a one level dip gets you a few but most of those have to be the lower level ones if you want anything comparable for your character's higher level.

I find it helps a little with the balance..

J from Three Haligonians

 

[Zurai]

Oh yeah, forgot to mention...

Once you multiclass OUT of Paladin, you can never take another Paladin class level. So, Paladin 8/Swordsage 1 isn't a 1 level dip, it's an entire change of character direction.

 

[udalrich]

Dipping into a Bo9S class is more like dipping into a caster class than dipping into a fighter class. Everyone knows that the multi-classed fighter-wizard is a bad idea, because the wizard's spells lag so far behind what's typical for that level. A ranger/fighter/barbarian who dips into fighter/barbarian/paladin/ranger for a level or two gains some abilities that will still be useful in 10 levels.

Similarly, a multi-classed Bo9S class isn't as good as a single-classed character, since his maneuvers are lower level and they generally don't scale with initiator level. A dip that gave you first level maneuvers would give you an effect on the scale of an additional 1d6 damage. As written, the dip gets you maneuvers that do about level/2 d6 of damage, which isn't as good as the single classed characters, but still probably worthwhile.

In an online game focus about power-gaming, I'm playing a Warblade 3/Ranger 1/Crusader 1. Almost all the crusader maneuvers are second level, so I've got a good selection of second level maneuvers. A straight Warblade 5 would have 1 third level maneuver, but he'd run out of maneuvers fairly quickly.

 

[Mistwell]

Don't forget that a lot of the better moves have prerequisites... usually one or two others.. so a one level dip gets you a few but most of those have to be the lower level ones if you want anything comparable for your character's higher level.

I find it helps a little with the balance..

J from Three Haligonians

Yeah, this is critical. You cannot get high level maneuvers with a one level dip, because you simply cannot qualify for the high level maneuvers. They almost all require that you have one or more prior maneuvers to get the higher level ones.

 

[Darklone]

A straight Warblade 5 would have 1 third level maneuver, but he'd run out of maneuvers fairly quickly.

Warblades never run out of maneuvers?

 

[Zurai]

Yeah, this is critical. You cannot get high level maneuvers with a one level dip, because you simply cannot qualify for the high level maneuvers. They almost all require that you have one or more prior maneuvers to get the higher level ones.

Yes, you can get high level maneuvers with a one level dip. Even a 1st level Warblade gets 3 maneuvers, which is enough to qualify for and take any maneuver below 8th or 9th level - ie, much higher than you can attain with a 1 level dip pre-epic. Actually, if you took your stance in that discipline as well, you could even qualify for and take a 9th level maneuver.

What you can't do is take all high level maneuvers.