Tome of Secrets - Artificer Issues

[Imban]

(This might be better served on the Paizo forums, but honestly I don't really like them and don't have an account.)

So, I really like the Tome of Secrets Artificer, except for how its main ability, the weird science inventions, works. (Or, uh, apparently doesn't.) While you're certainly limiting yourself if you choose to expend all of your inventions on one invention, it seems to have the potential for hideously stupid attacks - at level 9, an Artificer can handily make a "mage gun" that deals 20d4+20 damage with no hitroll required or save possible 6 times per day while still retaining all his possible 2nd and 3rd level spells for utility effects.

At higher levels this can pretty much be repeated with area spells (50d6 fire or lightning damage 10/day at level 17) or save-or-suffer spells. (like, hold person + hideous laughter + phantasmal killer + others in a device so they have to make many saves and pass all - though admittedly this is somewhat mitigated by how their base save never gets above 14+Stat... maybe.)

Speaking of 14+Stat, there's never anything listed to determine the save DC of a weird science invention, either. Assumedly it's per the spell for the base DC, at least, but no governing statistic is ever listed.

Now, I really like these guys and there's one potentially in my game now, so I'd kind of like to know whether this has gotten any official thought from the publisher, or what.

 

[EricNoah]

It does seem a little odd. I might start by coming up with some guidelines about devices not being able to produce the same essential effect twice (i.e. - it can only hold one spell that inflicts damage, one that inflicts a particular condition, one that enhances Armor Class, etc.). So their example of a device that produces lightning bolt plus cause wounds plus shield would not be permitted under this house rule, because lightning bolt and cause wounds create the same essential effect. I might also come up with a chart that limits the total number of powers per device depending on the artificer's level - maybe no more than 1 power on a device at character levels 1-4, then 2 powers per device at levels 5-8, etc. Would have to fiddle with the numbers. I would be hesitant to allow more than 3 powers per device, honestly - that's a lot of "spellcasting" in a short time. Again, wouldn't be so bad if you were limited by what essential effects could be stacked up.

 

[EricNoah]

On further consideration, I would also ask the player to respect some guidelines about appropriate "item slots" based on the effect. A gun that grants a shield bonus to you?? No. A gun should shoot something and do something to a target. If you want darkvision, it should be something like goggles. If you want fleetness of foot it should be something worn on the feet or legs. Etc. So again, a gun that both did damage to a target and produced a protective shield for the weilder would maybe not be super appropriate. This would be more of a flavor consideration than anything. I would certainly work with the player on this aspect.

 

[Starbuck_II]

(This might be better served on the Paizo forums, but honestly I don't really like them and don't have an account.)

So, I really like the Tome of Secrets Artificer, except for how its main ability, the weird science inventions, works. (Or, uh, apparently doesn't.) While you're certainly limiting yourself if you choose to expend all of your inventions on one invention, it seems to have the potential for hideously stupid attacks - at level 9, an Artificer can handily make a "mage gun" that deals 20d4+20 damage with no hitroll required or save possible 6 times per day while still retaining all his possible 2nd and 3rd level spells for utility effects.

I'm confused how is no save/auto hit balanced at any level? (Magic Missile/Hail of Stones not withstanding.)

Are you sure you got the guidelines right?

Can you sum up text.

 

[Drkfathr1]

I haven't gone over the artificer very well yet either, but I remember having some the same concerns he first time I read it. I like Eric's idea of limiting the number of effects you include in a device, and a limit on "stacking" similar effects.

Maybe a limit on damage based on your level? Damage definately shouldn't stack, but maybe only use the highest damage of two or more spells and split the damage between different energy types? Kind of like the cleric spell Flamestrike does?

 

[Imban]

I'm confused how is no save/auto hit balanced at any level? (Magic Missile/Hail of Stones not withstanding.)

Are you sure you got the guidelines right?

Can you sum up text.

Weird science inventions let you make an invention that duplicates the effect of any spell or spells, and you can have X many spells in inventions at any time. For instance, at level 9, you can have 4 level 1 spells, 3 level 2 spells, and 2 level 3 spells extant at any one time. This can be 9 inventions, or one invention that costs four level 1 spells at once, one invention that casts two level 2 spells, one invention that casts one level 2 spell, and two inventions that each cast one level 3 spell, each having independent uses/day based on your class level.

By casting at once, the book features a sample invention at lv5 that combines Lightning Bolt, Inflict Light Wounds, and Shield, shooting 5d6 electric damage, doing 1d8+5 damage to anyone you touch with it, and giving you +4 shield AC while you use it.

So you can also probably create an invention at lv9 that combines Magic Missile, Magic Missile, Magic Missile, and Magic Missile, shooting 5d4+5 force damage, 5d4+5 force damage, 5d4+5 force damage, and 5d4+5 force damage at any target or targets.

At later levels you can stack save-or-lose effects, and while the save will probably be lower than from a full caster and the effect less severe, they'll have to pass multiple saves in order to avoid all the effects.

And, well, there just isn't a formula for determining the save DCs anywhere.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Like I said when I did my mini reviews, the SCIENCE~! ability is cool fluff wise, but really, REALLY debatable mechanically in terms of power.