Too Many Abilities?

[Nifft]

When I make npcs, the two longest parts of creation are:

1) Choosing magic items
2) delegating skills

Same here, but I'll add spell choice for NPC casters. I tend to make Sorcerers and Wilders just because they're easier to stat up and play.

Cheers, -- N

 

[KarinsDad]

I think people are missing the point of this thread.

I agree that character creation might be quicker in 4E based on what information we have been given. But, I am discussing in play difficulties, not pre-game difficulties.


Simpler stat blocks might make play quicker for monsters, but what about NPCs?

If the PCs have 50% more abilities per level on average, then class based NPCs will also have 50% more abilities per level.

Not only does the DM have to understand the extra 50% abilities for his 3 to 7 PCs over 3.5 during the game, he also has to understand them for his plethora of NPCs.

 

[Nifft]

I think people are missing the point of this thread.

You need to understand that the abilities of an NPC aren't just his feats & talents & class abilities.

In 3.5e, spell selection and magic item selection constitute the most time-consuming parts of NPC creation for some of us.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Kintara]

There are likely simplified NPC stats as well. I suspect that a DM could probably run the game with out using PC classes at all and not miss a lot. But even so, choices don't equal abilities. Many feats and powers could be enhancements that you take and factor in to a smaller number of abilities.

 

[Aloïsius]

I guess the DMG will have pre-generated NPC. Hopefuly, they will be archtype rather than mere blah level/race combo. I don't care what are the stats of a 15th level warrior or a 3rd level comoner. I want the stats of a 15 level knight of the King or a third level innkeeper.

 

[KarinsDad]

You need to understand that the abilities of an NPC aren't just his feats & talents & class abilities.

In 3.5e, spell selection and magic item selection constitute the most time-consuming parts of NPC creation for some of us.

I do understand that. But, this thread is not about NPC creation.

It's about playing PCs and NPCs, and how easy or difficult that might be in 4E.

Specifically, I was discussing non-spell casters because we have very little 4E information concerning spell casters. Do 4E spell casters acquire spells via feats or talents? Or, do they acquire them similar to 3.5 (i.e. a boatload of spells picked out by the player or DM)?

In 3.5, players who want less complexity tend to play Barbarians, Fighter, Monks, and Rogues (and to a lesser extent, Bards, Rangers, and Paladins) mostly because they do not have a lot of spells to go through.

With the advent of 4E, however, even the simple classes of "Fighters and Rogues" appear to potentially have more abilities than in 3.5.

The question is, does this make the game harder to play?

Many magic items tend to add a bonus to some PC attribute (such as to hit, damage, ability scores, AC, etc.) and are very easy to understand, use, and adjudicate. The DM can control the acquisition of magic items which are not like this and have other special attributes and/or rules (e.g. a Broom of Flying or a Chaos Diamond).

But, depending on how much talents and feats modify attributes and how much they add a layer of rules will determine how difficult they are to play. A feat like 4E Dodge which adds +1 to Reflex Defense (a potential type of feat in 4E) is simple because it can be built into the PC or NPC character sheet and forgotten. A feat like Spring Attack adds a level of complexity where rules have to be known or looked up during play.

The more talents and feats introduced to the game which are like Bo9S maneuvers or stances which require in game knowledge or lookup, the more complexity is introduced. Especially for historically simpler PCs like Fighters and Rogues.

The possibility that such PCs will have more talents and/or feats in 4E introduces the possibility of more complexity based solely on number of abilities.

 

[Celebrim]

I agree that character creation might be quicker in 4E based on what information we have been given.

Didn't one of the designers state that you actually had more choices to make in 4E character creation compared to 3E?

 

[Black Knight Irios]

Many magic items tend to add a bonus to some PC attribute (such as to hit, damage, ability scores, AC, etc.) and are very easy to understand, use, and adjudicate. The DM can control the acquisition of magic items which are not like this and have other special attributes and/or rules (e.g. a Broom of Flying or a Chaos Diamond).

In a standard campaign you have christmas trees running around and you have first to know where to put an item to claim its bonus. And as we know magic item dependency will lessen in 4E - so one complex point is out - having countless small items all giving some small bonuses or abilities.

If there effects get incorporated into classes, you will have to cope with their "complexity" there but I think it will be still far more easy than before.

Didn't one of the designers state that you actually had more choices to make in 4E character creation compared to 3E?

More choices don't necessarily mean more work.

 

[Nifft]

I do understand that. But, this thread is not about NPC creation.

If it's not about NPCs, then the character creation you mean is not going to happen very often. It can be quite complex and yet still within the range of acceptable.

For NPCs, what I hear about 4e sounds quicker & easier.

For PCs, it sounds about the same as 3.5e, but you put more time into inherent abilities rather than purchased magic-item granted abilities.

Same for playing them. Abilities are abilities, even if they are marked "Winged Boots" instead of "Flying Monkey Stance".

Cheers, -- N

 

[Varianor Abroad]

With the advent of 4E, however, even the simple classes of "Fighters and Rogues" appear to potentially have more abilities than in 3.5.

Yes. Agreed.

But, depending on how much talents and feats modify attributes and how much they add a layer of rules will determine how difficult they are to play. A feat like 4E Dodge which adds +1 to Reflex Defense (a potential type of feat in 4E) is simple because it can be built into the PC or NPC character sheet and forgotten. A feat like Spring Attack adds a level of complexity where rules have to be known or looked up during play.

This will probably sound nitpicky, but players seem to have a more intuitive ability to handle Spring Attack (I move, I hit, I use up the rest of my movement) than Dodge (I have to remember to declare this bonus and declare it on one enemy).

The possibility that such PCs will have more talents and/or feats in 4E introduces the possibility of more complexity based solely on number of abilities.

There I concur. In theory, this is exactly what will happen. I'm still at wait and see though because if it's complexity that's intuitively easier to grasp and manipulate, then it's not quite so complex once you have mastery.