Torchbearer 2nd ed: first impressions

kenada

Legend
Supporter
Alright.

@AbdulAlhazred , @kenada , @niklinna . You’re through 2 x Journey/Adventure/Town phases of play with 3 x Camp phases.

You’ve lost 2 PCs but heroically/nobly (RIP Ruby and Jasper.

You’ve rediscovered Elfhome (Woodcleft), rescued an elven babe and gained Precedence with the Elves.

You’ve barely survived a Spiritual Conflict with a fell entity from another world (fleeing with Ruby sacrificing herself so the others might live.

You’ve dealt with your Enemies (Merrick and The Bear) for both good and for ill.

You’ve recovered Awanye the Elf’s sister’s body for proper burial in their homelands.

You’ve mapped an entire mountain expedition.

You’ve dealt with a haunted Hangman Tree.

You’ve lost a Trick Conflict to a Witch who lured you into an illusory enchanted forest where Jasper was cursed to do her bidding (which later led to his noble fate).

You’ve ritually thawed the Valkyrie stop her mountain perch by relighting Orin’s Everburning Brazier, heralding the return of warriors from faraway lands as she can once again watch over their battles and take them to Valhalla.

You’ve fearlessly (or foolishly!) fought a White Dragon (neither Adult nor Ancient…but Dragon nonetheless!) by her side and taken its horde.


Thoughts on Torchbearer 2 thus far?
Torchbearer does a really good job of deploying its mechanics. Having inventory and light and all those things actually matter is great. It’s helped me give me a target for that kind of play in my homebrew system. It’s also helped give me an idea of how far I should not go.

However, I find it difficult to articulate how I feel about the game overall. I’ve enjoyed our session and our group, but I’m not sure I’d want to play another TB campaign or with another group. In a way, it can be exhausting to play. Even though I can point to the items on my character sheet that show Jakob has gotten some nice gear, it feels like he’s no better or possibly worse off than before we started playing. My helmet and cloak are still damaged, and he could just barely afford to buy food rations after returning to town with a dragon’s hoard. On top of that, and I understand this was the result of choices made by the players, instead of getting to celebrate our victory, we get to find a new companion (again).

One area where I struggle with the system a bit is that almost every decision we make while adventuring is tied to a test. I don’t know if that’s the fault of having the scale of adventures tied to a certain number of obstacles or just what we’ve done so far, but in spite of trying to be evocative of old-school dungeoneering, it doesn’t feel very successful at it. There have been few opportunities to deploy player skill or to solve riddles or problems without invoking a test. Skilled play has been how we engage with the system rather than how we engage as our characters. I peeked at the example adventure in the Scholar’s Guide, but it seems more like a modern adventure (a series of challenges) rather than an old-school dungeon. Could one even run something like Winter’s Daughter using Torchbearer? How would the grind make sense during a wedding party?

I will also echo that the books are awful. I stopped reading them because I thought I had read enough of the Scholar’s Guide (up through town phase), but it seems like that’s not enough. While the Lore Master’s Manual is purportedly optional, it seems like one is best off to read all the things. At least it’s not letter-sized, but it’s still a lot reading. It doesn’t help that the PDFs’ tables of contents are horrible. Whoever thought putting the index in the PDF ToC was a good idea should have their InDesign license taken away. I also don’t understand the split sometimes. Why are the diagrams for the phases included at the back of the Dungeoneer’s Handbook when the phases are explained in the Scholar’s Guide?

With all that said, I just want to end by reemphasizing that I’ve been enjoying our sessions and our group. It’s been fun, and I want to keep playing.

Edit: Oh, and I don’t like how skill advancement works. I’m pretty sure I have messed up tracking my skills. “Use it to advance skills” is a thing that makes sense but feels crappy in practice, especially when whether you get to mark advancement depends on how the skill is being deployed. For a new player, it feels safest to err on the side of not marking, which means I’ve probably shorted myself a bunch.
 

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kenada

Legend
Supporter
Speaking of character creation, it's a mix of package-deal classes, questionnaire-based "customization" via a few either/or choices, and a random roll or two just for good measure. I'm not a fan of any of those methods of character creation and the particular combination here, along with the winding prose, made this process not at all fun for me. The game seems to assume a party of three as the baseline, and there's no way to cover all the bases with only three characters—which does perhaps fit back into the tone they're going for!
I want to add to this. I didn’t like how there were trap options in the questionnaire. My character is a loner, which means I was supposed to sit out that part while everyone else finished their questionnaires. All I got was a trait in exchange for terrible circles and no friends or family. Doesn’t feel worth the trade-off at all (and I’ve read TB1 was even worse!). I also didn’t like that I was being asked to make decisions on things before they were introduced and explained.

“Write a belief”. Oh, okay. writes a belief

Here’s the chapter that explains beliefs, instincts, etc. reads how those are supposed to be written Time to rewrite some things…. 🤦🏻‍♂️
 

Good posts @AbdulAlhazred , @kenada , and @niklinna ! That kind of honest, thoughtful, and thorough review should be helpful for onlookers thinking about playing.

The only thing I’ll add is the following:

* Personally, I loved @niklinna ’s decision to risk his life by sparing the child and engaging with her spectral mother to remove his curse. He could have trivially removed it. His death is extremely meaningful. When I GM these types of games I love these brutal decisions no matter how they turn out because they reveal the character to us. And personally, I love tragic themes and meaningful sacrifice so Jasper has just become a much more meaningful character to me than he would have been if he would have just marked the child’s door for the witch. I will remember him.

* I totally understand that it is a grueling experience player-side (as intended), but I want to let folks know that (once you understand the system) it isn’t such GM-side. If you’re a curious GM, if you enjoy the themes/premise of the game, and you like creating these types of thematic/decision-point-intensive “obstacle courses”…TB (and TB2) is a joy to GM.
 
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kenada

Legend
Supporter
I totally understand that it is a grueling experience player-side (as intended), but I want to let folks know that (once you understand the system) it isn’t such GM-side. If you’re a curious GM, if you live the themes/premise of the game, and you like creating threes types of thematic/decision-point-intensive “obstacle courses”…TB (and TB2) is a joy to GM.
I think that’s a good summary of the problems I mentioned with the example adventure. Looking at it wearing an OSR GM hat, a good OSR adventure isn’t just an obstacle course. When I hear “obstacle course”, I think “modern” adventure design where dungeons are reduced to a series of challenges. In particular, it seems like there have been few or no opportunities to use a Good Idea to avoid a test (and thus advancing the grind).
 

Good posts @AbdulAlhazred , @kenada , and @niklinna ! That kind of honest, thoughtful, and thorough review should be helpful for onlookers thinking about playing.

The only thing I’ll add is the following:

* Personally, I loved @niklinna ’s decision to risk his life by sparing the child and engaging with her spectral mother to remove his curse. He could have trivially removed it. His death is extremely meaningful. When I GM these types of games I love these brutal decisions no matter how they turn out because they reveal the character to us. And personally, I love tragic themes and meaningful sacrifice so Jasper has just become a much more meaningful character to me than he would have been if he would have just marked the child’s door for the witch. I will remember him.

* I totally understand that it is a grueling experience player-side (as intended), but I want to let folks know that (once you understand the system) it isn’t such GM-side. If you’re a curious GM, if you enjoy the themes/premise of the game, and you like creating these types of thematic/decision-point-intensive “obstacle courses”…TB (and TB2) is a joy to GM.
Just as an observation, Awanye FULLY expects the party will be 'haunted' by the ghost of Jasper from now on, lol! Whether he's a helpful ghost or a baleful one (or maybe some of each) I guess will be up to how we leverage that in play, hehe. And, I think TB2 definitely has tools that can work for that, It certainly would be easy enough to describe losing a tie, or tossing an extra die using a Fate point as having some supernatural explanation!
 

kenada

Legend
Supporter
Personally, I loved @niklinna ’s decision to risk his life by sparing the child and engaging with her spectral mother to remove his curse. He could have trivially removed it. His death is extremely meaningful. When I GM these types of games I love these brutal decisions no matter how they turn out because they reveal the character to us. And personally, I love tragic themes and meaningful sacrifice so Jasper has just become a much more meaningful character to me than he would have been if he would have just marked the child’s door for the witch. I will remember him.
I want to respond to this because rereading your post made brought something important to mind. I think this event very nicely exposes the tension between skilled play (Step On Up) and Story Now in Torchbearer. After the harsh adventure, I shifted fully into the former because I didn’t want to “lose” town and not be in a good position to have a better next adventure. That’s why I went for help instead of getting pulled into a conflict with the thugs in the market, and it’s why I hedged to avoid taxing my resources again when I left town. @niklinna on the other hand went fully into what Jasper would do. I don’t really have more to say other than to point that out for illustrative purposes.

Also, isn’t it theoretically possible to remove the dead condition? 🤔
 

@kenada and @niklinna and @AbdulAlhazred

Look at Pay the Terrible Price (LMM p 94) . This gives procedures and thematics for what you're talking about.

Journeys to Hell and other things are covered as well there.

EDIT - Interestingly, what you're describing above is precisely what makes D&D 4e such a great synthesis of Step On Up and Story Now priorities; the allocation of the Step On Up component overwhelmingly being at the scene level rather than overwhelmingly as an aspect of a strategic through-line that transcends scenes. Blades has a similar allocation to 4e (the both have Skilled Play that manifests as a strategic through-line that transcends scenes...but the big bulk of Skilled Play is deft management of move-space and resource deployment and fictional positioning within the scene).

That is a huge deal. Overwhelmingly, games that coherently express both priorities (at least in part if not "whole-hog") are possessed of this architectural feature.
 
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kenada

Legend
Supporter
@kenada and @niklinna and @AbdulAlhazred

Look at Pay the Terrible Price (LMM p 94) . This gives procedures and thematics for what you're talking about.

Journeys to Hell and other things are covered as well there.
Wasn’t sure that was in play, which is why I didn’t mention it explicitly, but yes. On the other hand, I do think Jasper had a good end. It’s certainly better than falling off the side of a mountain or being eaten by a tree.
 

niklinna

satisfied?
Edit: Oh, and I don’t like how skill advancement works. I’m pretty sure I have messed up tracking my skills. “Use it to advance skills” is a thing that makes sense but feels crappy in practice, especially when whether you get to mark advancement depends on how the skill is being deployed. For a new player, it feels safest to err on the side of not marking, which means I’ve probably shorted myself a bunch.
Wanted to hit this point before I continue reading. I do agree here; it's very easy to forget to actually mark the advancement. I feel that's more due to us playing remotely for some reason—this is not the only game stat I've noticed is harder to track playing virtually. I feel that if I were playing in person with paper sheets, it would be pretty easy to keep track of. I could be wrong.
 

Wanted to hit this point before I continue reading. I do agree here; it's very easy to forget to actually mark the advancement. I feel that's more due to us playing remotely for some reason—this is not the only game stat I've noticed is harder to track playing virtually. I feel that if I were playing in person with paper sheets, it would be pretty easy to keep track of. I could be wrong.
I think it is easier, but maybe not SIMPLE. Does TB2 have roll20 support? If so that might be useful as there would likely be automatic tracking, as well as hopefully it would help with knowing what mechanical options you have at any given time, at least in rules terms.
 

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