Total Defeat without Death

[Lord Zardoz]

While looking at a different thread where someone was asking how to allow the players to encounter an overwhelmingly powerful opponent without ending the encounter in a TPK, something occured to me. With the rules as written, there is pretty much no way to have a knock down drag out fight without one side or the other ending up dead.

You can choose to start the encounter with dialog easily enough. You can make the opponent pretty much invulnerable to the players and disinclined to even bother fighting them. You can use magical communication so the players cannot even get near an opponent while still being able to talk to them. You can even make the opponent pretty much inaccessible behind a locked door and force the players to find the key first.

But you cannot have a face to face encounter that results in a fight wherein you can have either the players or the villians beaten to a bloody smear without logically having the losers killed.

Example: Lets say you happen to like the idea of having a local crime lord as an element in your campaign. Lets put him at 18th level, with adequate bodyguards on hand. Your players run into him in a bar at 9th level. One of the players happens to like hitting things with his sword. So after the 18th level rogue tells the players to leave the bar so he can do some business, the reckless player tries to stab him.

At this point, a cuthroat DM is going to just TPK the players. The Rogue probably has the means to completly destroy the players in combat. Some DM's sove this by taking people prisoner. The players escape, and later on, they take a 2nd shot at the opponent. But if the rogue will be disinclined to take prisoners, the DM's pretty much limited to causing a slaughter and killing players.

Potentially worse, the players could get the upper hand and kill the Rogue by the virtue of dog piling him, or rolling very well.

The only viable solution I see is to have a 3rd party use a Raise Dead type spell on the loser of the fight.

So what am I over looking? What is the simplest way to let the players get in way over their heads without feeling obligated to TPK, or having to kludge in a 3rd party rescue, or taking the players prisoner?

END COMMUNICATION

 

[Gruns]

Huh?

Could you repeat the question?

Thanks.
Gruns

 

[Herremann the Wise]

Hi Lord Zardoz,

Interesting question.

Try to get inside the enemy's head and go from there. I'll use your example in a variety of scenarios and let's see how we go.

High level Rogue is attacked by Mid Level Fighter or Party.

1. The Rogue gets his minions to take care of it while he disappears and continues business elsewhere. The PCs can most likely handle this but have also earned themselves an enemy.
2. The Rogue ruthlessly kills one of the PCs and tells the others in no uncertain terms for the rest to get lost otherwise he'll kill them all. This option depends upon the players. If you have martyrs as PCs, they will die like the first guy.
3. If the Rogue is cruel, he'll simply kill them all and enjoy doing it. TPK! However, next time, the player's will know that you mean business and will most likely be more cautious next time.
4. The Rogue simply sneaks away, not wanting to create a scene. If a PC tries to stop him, they will most likley end up dead or very sore. The real nasty rogue will eliminate the PC while the cautious rogue will only do what they have to to escape.
5. You go for the mexican stand off. Go the readied action on their weakest member and make your PCs fear the result if they don't follow orders. This may be difficult and result in some horrendous outcomes - "why did you try to hit him? He killed my character because of your stupidity!".

I'm sure there are lots of other ideas but maybe this can get the ball rolling.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[S'mon]

So what am I over looking? What is the simplest way to let the players get in way over their heads without feeling obligated to TPK, or having to kludge in a 3rd party rescue, or taking the players prisoner?

Fate Points - from OGL Conan - the players can spend FPs for PCs to be "left for dead" rather than dead-dead, after losing a fight.

 

[AuraSeer]

Every crime lord should know the importance of style. It's sometimes best to leave the rabble alive but impressed, so they can tell everyone how dangerous you are and increase your reputation. Killing their friends or or tossing them into the dungeon will only make enemies of them.

When the PC attacks, have the rogue laugh at him and attack unarmed. A full attack that way has the potential to do 24d6 subudal damage in sneak attack alone (assuming a bodyguard is there to set up flanking). His plan should be to drop the aggressive one in the first round, thereby convincing any sane opponents that he's too much of a badass to mess with. A bodyguard will then order the PCs to collect their friend and get out before The Boss gets mad.

If the party insists on attacking even after it's made clear that they are outclassed, there isn't much more you can do. Some players will be determined to assault a great wyrm with their 1st-level characters; you must choose whether to contrive a deus ex machina, or allow the TPK they're asking for.

 

[derbacher]

Originally posted by S'mon


Fate Points - from OGL Conan - the players can spend FPs for PCs to be "left for dead" rather than dead-dead, after losing a fight.

I was going to say Action Points (from UA or Eberron), but its probably the same thing.
No player deaths have occured in over a year since instituting action points, and we have had a couple "the whole party is lying on the floor, bleeding, with all their equipment stolen" moments. The players love that sooooooo much!

 

[Warehouse23]

A few magic words:

* Non-lethal damage

* Hold (x) spells

* Entangling spells (web, EBT, iron bands)

* Wall spells

* Overwhelming force (players should know to back down when the upper gallery of a building suddenly fills up with archers)

* Hostages (you don't have to render the whole party helpless, just one. Then the BBEG threatens to CDG him unless the party backs down. It's good to be evil)

Remember, most people, even in a fantasy world don't LIKE killing other people. Not all, but most. Evil people, particularly in "civilized" areas like towns get to where they are by using carefully planned, highly effective, extremely brutal shows of force. Sometimes it's better to humiliate an opponent than have the town watch on your back every other week for murder charges.

 

[EricNoah]

A few magic words:

* Non-lethal damage

Indeed; the crux of my house rules are that there are more ways to inflict/receive subdual damage. I changed things so that blunt attacks (blunt weapons, slams, constriction, buffets, etc.), short falls, and two energy types (sonic and cold) deal subdual damage by default. It really changes the flavor of the game when the heroes are just as likely to be knocked unconscious as outright slain in a fight.

 

[frankthedm]

Indeed; the crux of my house rules are that there are more ways to inflict/receive subdual damage. I changed things so that blunt attacks (blunt weapons, slams, constriction, buffets, etc.), short falls, and two energy types (sonic and cold) deal subdual damage by default. It really changes the flavor of the game when the heroes are just as likely to be knocked unconscious as outright slain in a fight.

I think that is a very good idea, but that execution severly weakens those attacks when healing magic is available.

Given the high damage on constriction, transfering that to subual in part[say 50%] or in full does make a lot of sence.

 

[EricNoah]

I think that is a very good idea, but that execution severly weakens those attacks when healing magic is available.

Given the high damage on constriction, transfering that to subual in part[say 50%] or in full does make a lot of sence.

Well that's the other half of the equation -- using AU/AE's "transfer wounds" spells that replace hp damage with subdual damage; a system of herbal remedies that can treat various kinds of injuries/conditions; an expanded rule for "what kinds of creatures are immune to what kinds of attacks" (elementals are generally immune to subdual damage, but water elementals take lethal damage from cold, for example). And there are ways to turn nonlethal attacks into lethal attacks (take a -4 on attack roll to inflict lethal blows; or a spellcraft check to turn cold or sonic into lethal damage). It's amazing how one little concept can trickle down through the rules.

It was kind of fun watching the players cast cold or sonic spells at zombies early on in the campaign and discovering that they're immune to subdual damage. They got the hang of it pretty quickly.