Total Party Kill -- How do you recover?

I dunno ... TPK means, well, TOTAL, to me. If there's a man standing, there's a man who can drag the bodies back to town and get everyone raised. :)

As for the second example, WOW, that sounds like fun! Negative hit points make for some very, very tense situations ... but as long as they don't fall below the death threshold, it's all good.

If the ENTIRE party gets wiped out ... then you have to decide if you pull a God in the Machine, or start fresh. But bottom line, if the players push it and gamble, sometimes they have to lose. If they always believe you will get their fat out of the frier, the game loses something, IMO.
 

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thundershot said:
If it ever happened to me... I'd likely have them make new characters who are sent to find these "great heroes" and see what happened to them. Or maybe they continue the other heroes mission, only to discover the "TRUE" fate of the other heroes, and end up having to fight them. Winner takes all. Maybe they're resurrected and geased, and the new party has to break the geas. Let the players sort it out after that...

Chris
I've done most of those myself, and let me tell you, my players loved doing the "TRUE" fate one the most.
 

you have kill ghouls goblins, hobgoblins, spider snakes, kings, queens and a sorted bad things. And now you whining because the monsters won one! Gee not like you could have ran away.
Here arnold hold this hand grenda in you hands. Oh it will explode and take out the two red shirts but since you a hero you won't die.
Start a new party.
Ask if they want to go back into the same dungeon.
If not, adventurers and adventures are a dime a dozen so start elsewhere and with a new dungeon.
I have came close to a TPK but always wimped out because I was afraid that players would cry and not play any more.
Kill them dead dead dead if they stupid.
Gee Mr. King I do see why you so upset that we did stole your daughter and use her as a pack horse. And where are our 50 gp each.
If your story is wreck by a TPK it was not. It just suddenly became a tragedy. Hamlet in Hommlet with an Omlet any one
 

I think that you need to figure out what motivates your players.

Some have suggested that you should never let a TPK happen, that "plot is king" and the PCs should always win. That's fine if you all subscribe to that type of campaign, but it doesn't work for everyone.

Our group are mainly strategic players: plot and character development are important, but the players get the most satisfaction in strategically gameplay. The challenge for us is in combat and game mechanics, and we get satisfaction from knowing that we defeated badguy-x against the odds. If there's no risk of death, there's little satisfaction in winning.

YMMV - this works for us because it's the way we enjoy playing. We actually had a TPK about 2 months ago: we ended up rolling up new characters who were hired by a known NPC to recover the bodies of the previous party. It made sense within the plot context, and let us pick up where we left off (to some degree). Were we bitter towards the DM? Not at all!! We made a few mistakes in combat, and it cost us the battle - we knew the risk ahead of time, and were prepared for the possibility.

Again, I'd stress that you talk about it, figure out what everyone wants to get from the game and work out a compromise if necessary. The "right" answer is the one that results in everyone enjoying your game.
 

Hit the reset button, hand out some blank character sheets and start rolling d6s.

In my experience, TPK should always be a threat if the players aren't savvy enough to figure out when to run. I prefer my games to have that "edge" -- if the characters want to fight to the death against foes where they should know better, that's their problem. I guarantee that my NPCs aren't so stupid.
 
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Two other points that occur to me as I read the posts:

I have worked hard to make sure that my characters are afraid of danger -- that flight is always a seriously considered option. If people haven't figured out that it's just time to flee, kill one of their number as an example and watch the others scramble out.

Also, I don't just fudge in favour of the PCs; sometimes I fudge against them -- sometimes I've made a foe too weak or a foe has had horrid luck. I work to make sure that PCs get a genuine work-out in combat so that they're really pushed. The game before last, the PCs confronted the unluckiest 12th level druid in history -- plus I made a mistake with two of his spells; so I gave him 20 extra hps once the combat got going. I feel that everyone left feeling more satisfied than if my horrendous dice luck and mismanagement of spells had been allowed to stand.
 

Open rolling should not be a problem

Open rolling should not be a problem!

a) Whenever a player/group asks me to roll in the open I'll warn them about the dangers and ask them if they still want me to roll open. Once they say roll open, they'll have to swallow whatever comes their way, but...

b) open rolling does not stop a DM from fudging or altering outcome or ... Unless you put the stats of the opposition open on the table, you can still call any roll a hit or a miss. And all monsters are not obliged to use every weapon/spell/ability all the time. Eg, a dragon might forget to use his breath weapon (I know rather extreme example but it'll serve) Also don't forget mother nature. A sudden huricane or lightning stroke might disturb an attacker or a passing patrol or...

In the end it still is the DM who decides. If he feels the party should perish, roll open and don't fudge. If he want's to keep the party, fudge all you like (even with open rolling) but do make em pay (PC's should never have it TOO easy ;-) )
And ultimatly, if your players want open rolling and ask you NOT to fudge, make shure they understand they'll have to accept any possible outcome (the idea of having the players sign a 'contract' as mentioned in one of the replies sounds a bit extreme to me but could shure help to avoid problems in that case)
 

Re: Open rolling should not be a problem

drakhe said:
(the idea of having the players sign a 'contract' as mentioned in one of the replies sounds a bit extreme to me but could shure help to avoid problems in that case)

For the record, you're reading more formality there than I intended. I've never made my players sign anything; our contract is more informal. If you prefer, substitute "the gentlemen's agreement governing what's acceptable in my game".

I think the terms 'game contract' or 'play contract' first got started in rec.games.frp.advocacy; that's where I first encountered it, anyway.

. . . . . . . -- Eric
 


I've never had a TPK, so I've never had to wrestle with this issue. But my approach would be certainly to see what the group wants to do. If they want to roll up new characters, fine. If not, then I can bring them back.

For me, the issue already sort of exists in my campaign. I don't allow raise dead or resurrection, thus leaving only miracle and wish as a way to bring a character back. But these don't grow on trees (especially in a world like mine where magic is less common than in FR). My preferred method is through role-playing, either on the part of other party members (obviously not possible for a TPK, of course) or on the part of the dead person(s).

As an example, I had one character who died. He awoke then on some non-descript plane with about 100 other people, all looking around puzzled. They were basically told that following the path would bring them to an item that would bring one person back to life. Then, before they could start fighting amongst themselves, two red dragons showed up and the player and npc's wisely started running. Those who survived had a host of other obstacles to overcome. In the end, it was down to two people, the player and an npc - a younger girl who was no adventurer but ran fast (and thus survived). But only one of them could use the item. The player then struck her down and used it himself, although he felt very bad about doing so. Then I really made him feel guilty when an solar appeared and informed him that the entire thing was a contest between himself and a pit fiend, to see if people were basically selfish. Thanks to his action, the pit fiend had won the bet, which gave the devils the right to invade the prime material plane.

This is the sort of thing I like to do, find a way to bring players back that will be enjoyable and - if I am lucky - will make their future lives as adventurers difficult. :D To simply have players run off to a cleric, pay their gold and get them raised, just seems so anti-climactic to me. The opposite, just making them roll up another character, basically says don't get too attached to the character and reinforces the notion that what one is playing is a set of stats, not a character IMO. Death to me is a big issue (it happens relatively rarely in my campaigns) and shouldn't be gotten around like some little annoyance. ("Darn, my character died again. Oh well, no biggie, just roll another.")

In my most recent campaign (started about a year and a half ago), I generally have not been able to do this (and have ironically had the biggest problem with player deaths). I have actually added a house rule that allows players to "avoid" death (i.e., the last blow of a monster that would have killed them just instead takes them down to -9 HP, stabilized of course), but at a cost like raise dead (i.e., lose a level). There are several reasons for this, but a large part is that I don't have time for the solo adventures that a character's death typically required. But for a TPK, this wouldn't be an issue - it just replaces the next session. :)

As to open rolling, I'm definately in the "not" camp. Not only does it allow me to fudge (both for and against the party), but it seems necessary for some things, specifically those rolls that I make for players (e.g., detecting/disarming traps, knowledge rolls, etc.). I mean, they don't always know if they are successful. Did they not find a trap because there isn't one there or because they rolled low?

Just my $.02 worth
 

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