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<blockquote data-quote="Zinovia" data-source="post: 5129251" data-attributes="member: 57373">Great idea, I'll keep that in mind when making more of these.&nbsp; Given combat advantage, the rogue does the most at 3d8+9 with sly flourish (+2 rapier, backstabber feat, dex, cha).&nbsp; I think the sorcerer/warlock hybrid can only dish out 22 max with an at-will (d10 + bonuses).&nbsp; The seeker can do about 20 with an at-will.&nbsp; So perhaps my threshold was a little high, but it depends on what you want.&nbsp; I think most of the group could have one-shotted these with an encounter power.&nbsp; At level 7 they've each got three encounter attack powers, and the fight really lasted only 4 rounds, so spending an encounter power isn't a huge waste.&nbsp; These &quot;tough minions&quot; are a way to reduce my hp tracking and present foes that are a threat, but don't have to be whittled down from a large number of HP.&nbsp; For masses of cannon fodder, I'll use normal minions.&nbsp; I used 3:1 for these, and I use 6:1 for normal minions.&nbsp; I don't feel that 4:1 accurately reflects the threat posed by minions.&nbsp; They just die too fast most of the time.&nbsp; For these guys I think 2:1 or 3:1 would be appropriate.&nbsp; I only use xp values for designing encounter difficulty, and don't keep track of it much for leveling.&nbsp; I tell the group to level up when it seems appropriate.I think my group would flip out if there was a typical gnoll guard they were fighting that had a 25+ AC, compared to the more normal 20-23 range for the others.&nbsp; They are very aware of the numbers in fights, so I don't think they would like it much.&nbsp; I can see where just making them harder to hit would help with survivability, and simplify tracking.&nbsp; Great suggestion, thanks!&nbsp; It sounds about right, with some variations for role as Nifft suggested.&nbsp; I used the same stats as the normal version of the creature.&nbsp; I don't want these to be any easier to hit, or to do less damage.&nbsp; I just want them to die more quickly so we can get through the fight fast and the PC's feel powerful.&nbsp; Same here.That's a good idea as well.&nbsp; It involves tracking damage, but does get rid of the issue with auto-damage, or miss damage which is where things get weird with normal minions.&nbsp; Here you have the benefit of two real hits killing them, but other damage can as well; just not as quickly.&nbsp; It's an interesting approach, thanks for mentioning it.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Zinovia, post: 5129251, member: 57373"] Great idea, I'll keep that in mind when making more of these. Given combat advantage, the rogue does the most at 3d8+9 with sly flourish (+2 rapier, backstabber feat, dex, cha). I think the sorcerer/warlock hybrid can only dish out 22 max with an at-will (d10 + bonuses). The seeker can do about 20 with an at-will. So perhaps my threshold was a little high, but it depends on what you want. I think most of the group could have one-shotted these with an encounter power. At level 7 they've each got three encounter attack powers, and the fight really lasted only 4 rounds, so spending an encounter power isn't a huge waste. These "tough minions" are a way to reduce my hp tracking and present foes that are a threat, but don't have to be whittled down from a large number of HP. For masses of cannon fodder, I'll use normal minions. I used 3:1 for these, and I use 6:1 for normal minions. I don't feel that 4:1 accurately reflects the threat posed by minions. They just die too fast most of the time. For these guys I think 2:1 or 3:1 would be appropriate. I only use xp values for designing encounter difficulty, and don't keep track of it much for leveling. I tell the group to level up when it seems appropriate. I think my group would flip out if there was a typical gnoll guard they were fighting that had a 25+ AC, compared to the more normal 20-23 range for the others. They are very aware of the numbers in fights, so I don't think they would like it much. I can see where just making them harder to hit would help with survivability, and simplify tracking. Great suggestion, thanks! It sounds about right, with some variations for role as Nifft suggested. I used the same stats as the normal version of the creature. I don't want these to be any easier to hit, or to do less damage. I just want them to die more quickly so we can get through the fight fast and the PC's feel powerful. Same here. That's a good idea as well. It involves tracking damage, but does get rid of the issue with auto-damage, or miss damage which is where things get weird with normal minions. Here you have the benefit of two real hits killing them, but other damage can as well; just not as quickly. It's an interesting approach, thanks for mentioning it. [/QUOTE]

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