Tough Minion variation

[Zinovia]

I've read all kinds of great ideas here on how to speed up combats, and reduce the grind. The minion mechanic is a great place to start for that, but as we all know, minions often don't last long enough to do much. A single Scorching Burst, and *poof* they fall down. Waves of them can be deployed effectively, and they do have their place in the game. I wanted to have some guys that would be easy to take out, but still hang around just a bit longer than normal minions. Tough minions (that go to bloodied on the first hit, and to 0 on the second) were a great starting point, but I also added a hit point value that if exceeded, would take them out in a single round.

The ones I ran last night were 2 hit/ 25 hp minions (level 7). Any 2 hits will get rid of them, or any one hit of 25 or more points. They worked nicely, typically hanging around long enough to get a couple hits in on average. They did the normal damage for the base creature, as well as sharing its defenses and abilities. They just died more quickly. It let me throw a lot of gnolls at the party, while still letting the fight run fairly quickly. I didn't track their HP at all, instead just using my bloodied tokens when they took a hit.

I'm not sure what the best damage threshold for different levels of creatures would be. I chose 25 as a number that is reachable by my group on any crit from one of the strikers, or a lucky hit from most of the group. I wanted it to take a pretty solid hit to one-shot these guys. None of them were taken out in 1 shot last night, but we got within a few points of it a couple times.

So thanks to the ENWorld community for the genesis of the idea - it seems to be something that works nicely for us. It speeds up combat, reduces tracking on my side, lets the creatures be scary and effective, but still die quickly; at least so far.

 

[Keenberg]

Two hit minions, eh? I understand the important mechanics are laid out quite nicely here (and thank you) but was there another thread for this that you could link in?

 

[Nifft]

I'm not sure what the best damage threshold for different levels of creatures would be. I chose 25 as a number that is reachable by my group on any crit from one of the strikers, or a lucky hit from most of the group. I wanted it to take a pretty solid hit to one-shot these guys. None of them were taken out in 1 shot last night, but we got within a few points of it a couple times.

Good thinking.

IMHO this is a place to apply the original critter's role: a Brute Minion would have a high threshold for being one-shotted, while a Soldier would have a low threshold but high defenses, and an Artillery Minion would have a low threshold plus low defenses but usually rely on ranged attacks.

A 7th level Brute might have 25 HP, while a Soldier would have 20, which ought to be a number any Striker can hit reliably -- if a Striker is using an attack on a Minion, he ought to be able to drop it, since attacking a minion is usually a waste of his action.

As to what precisely the damage threshold ought to be, I strongly agree with your method: it should be a number that your PCs can reach, but not one they always surpass. One formula I've seen is (Level +10), but that seems on the low side. What kind of damage do your PCs tend to deal with their at-wills?

Finally, how many Minions do you use per XP chunk? The standard Minion formula is 4:1 vs. regular critters. For tough Minions, I've seen 3:1 used instead. What ratio did you use, and how well did it work?

Cheers, -- N

 

[DanmarLOK]

Just thought I'd comment since I've gone through several iterations of thought on minions and gameplay wise I ended up abandoning them all for speed of combat. Instead of two hits, saving throws, small hit point pools, etc, I just boost their defenses (or use higher level minions).

The boost to defenses makes them less likely to die to the first attack which is primarily what I was looking for, minions that last a little longer. The higher defenses requires no special mechanics, bookkeeping or anything else. Anything more than "Hit. Dead." added time to the combat for us and combat speed makes it more engaging for my players.

I'm not saying alternate rules are bad, I've used many different minion HR's myself. But in the end it was about combat flow and I went back to the original with a small twist that I typically use minions with roughly +2 to +4 defenses over stock.

 

[eriktheguy]

Try 10+2*Level HP
That would be 24 for your group which seemed to work pretty well.
It should ensure that single target encounter powers and multi-target dailies kill them about half the time.

 

[Arlough]

Tougher Minions

The 10 + (2*Level) = HP seems a good way to do it, I will have to try that in some skirmishes and see how it turns out. Do you use the same defenses as minions, or do you drop them to be the same as a soldier/brute/etc of the same level?

I've been doing two different kind of minions, depending on the effect I want.
Sometimes, I just want my players to feel the joy of wading through a sea of enemies, hacking a path to safety/danger. For those instances, I just use standard minions.

For the other kind, where I want something somewhat threatening because they don't know what they face, I take a standard monster and give it vulnerable it's bloodied value to attack powers. Ongoing damage or damage from other sources (e.g. Bloodpulse) do not count at attack powers for the purpose of this vulnerability. Also, they show as bloodied at 1/4 HP.
Misses deal damage, but don't benefit from the vulnerability.
I call these Minionized monsters, and consider them to be more worth the 1/4 exp.

This guarantees a 2 hit kill, but still leaves the option of killing in one hit, but the player's don't know which ones are the unlucky combatants because they all appear the same unless someone gets a high monster knowledge check. Even then, the player only knows that one is a runt.

Seems to work well at keeping the play exciting and the victory thrilling.

Also, I really don't like the way this is worded, but I am having trouble phrasing it better. Due to that, I would like to say
1) Sorry for the poor verbage.
2) Can anyone help me word this in a more elegant manner.

 

[Zinovia]

Two hit minions, eh? I understand the important mechanics are laid out quite nicely here (and thank you) but was there another thread for this that you could link in?

There's no one thread that I can recall. Others have posted about using 2 hit minions (tough minions), damage thresholds, and other variations. I can't credit any single person. I just took a couple of these ideas and ran with it.

 

[Zinovia]

IMHO this is a place to apply the original critter's role: a Brute Minion would have a high threshold for being one-shotted, while a Soldier would have a low threshold but high defenses, and an Artillery Minion would have a low threshold plus low defenses but usually rely on ranged attacks.

Great idea, I'll keep that in mind when making more of these.

As to what precisely the damage threshold ought to be, I strongly agree with your method: it should be a number that your PCs can reach, but not one they always surpass. <snip> What kind of damage do your PCs tend to deal with their at-wills?

Given combat advantage, the rogue does the most at 3d8+9 with sly flourish (+2 rapier, backstabber feat, dex, cha). I think the sorcerer/warlock hybrid can only dish out 22 max with an at-will (d10 + bonuses). The seeker can do about 20 with an at-will. So perhaps my threshold was a little high, but it depends on what you want. I think most of the group could have one-shotted these with an encounter power. At level 7 they've each got three encounter attack powers, and the fight really lasted only 4 rounds, so spending an encounter power isn't a huge waste. These "tough minions" are a way to reduce my hp tracking and present foes that are a threat, but don't have to be whittled down from a large number of HP. For masses of cannon fodder, I'll use normal minions.

Finally, how many Minions do you use per XP chunk? The standard Minion formula is 4:1 vs. regular critters. For tough Minions, I've seen 3:1 used instead. What ratio did you use, and how well did it work?

I used 3:1 for these, and I use 6:1 for normal minions. I don't feel that 4:1 accurately reflects the threat posed by minions. They just die too fast most of the time. For these guys I think 2:1 or 3:1 would be appropriate. I only use xp values for designing encounter difficulty, and don't keep track of it much for leveling. I tell the group to level up when it seems appropriate.

Just thought I'd comment since I've gone through several iterations of thought on minions and gameplay wise I ended up abandoning them all for speed of combat. Instead of two hits, saving throws, small hit point pools, etc, I just boost their defenses (or use higher level minions).

The boost to defenses makes them less likely to die to the first attack which is primarily what I was looking for, minions that last a little longer. The higher defenses requires no special mechanics, bookkeeping or anything else. Anything more than "Hit. Dead." added time to the combat for us and combat speed makes it more engaging for my players.

I think my group would flip out if there was a typical gnoll guard they were fighting that had a 25+ AC, compared to the more normal 20-23 range for the others. They are very aware of the numbers in fights, so I don't think they would like it much. I can see where just making them harder to hit would help with survivability, and simplify tracking.

Try 10+2*Level HP
That would be 24 for your group which seemed to work pretty well.
It should ensure that single target encounter powers and multi-target dailies kill them about half the time.

Great suggestion, thanks! It sounds about right, with some variations for role as Nifft suggested.

Do you use the same defenses as minions, or do you drop them to be the same as a soldier/brute/etc of the same level?

I used the same stats as the normal version of the creature. I don't want these to be any easier to hit, or to do less damage. I just want them to die more quickly so we can get through the fight fast and the PC's feel powerful.

Sometimes, I just want my players to feel the joy of wading through a sea of enemies, hacking a path to safety/danger. For those instances, I just use standard minions.

Same here.

I take a standard monster and give it vulnerable it's bloodied value to attack powers. Ongoing damage or damage from other sources (e.g. Bloodpulse) do not count at attack powers for the purpose of this vulnerability. Also, they show as bloodied at 1/4 HP.
Misses deal damage, but don't benefit from the vulnerability.
I call these Minionized monsters, and consider them to be more worth the 1/4 exp.

That's a good idea as well. It involves tracking damage, but does get rid of the issue with auto-damage, or miss damage which is where things get weird with normal minions. Here you have the benefit of two real hits killing them, but other damage can as well; just not as quickly. It's an interesting approach, thanks for mentioning it.

 

[TheHand]

I like a lot of the ideas here, I may have to steal some for my own games.

In the past, the way I've done 'tough minions' is to have them take 2 normal hits, but they go down in 1 if they are hit by a "big attack", such as a Crit or a 2W+ damaging attack. I felt this way, somebody who roles a Critical or who blows an Encounter power on them won't feel it was "wasted". And it still keeps things relatively simple.

 

[eriktheguy]

I like a lot of the ideas here, I may have to steal some for my own games.

In the past, the way I've done 'tough minions' is to have them take 2 normal hits, but they go down in 1 if they are hit by a "big attack", such as a Crit or a 2W+ damaging attack. I felt this way, somebody who roles a Critical or who blows an Encounter power on them won't feel it was "wasted". And it still keeps things relatively simple.

Welcome to the forums!
And yes, that is the way that many here are trying to do things. Some of us try to define 'big attack' in terms of damage required depending on level, but that's mostly just because we are OCD...