Tough Minion variation

[Nifft]

Given combat advantage, the rogue does the most at 3d8+9 with sly flourish (+2 rapier, backstabber feat, dex, cha). I think the sorcerer/warlock hybrid can only dish out 22 max with an at-will (d10 + bonuses). The seeker can do about 20 with an at-will. So perhaps my threshold was a little high, but it depends on what you want. I think most of the group could have one-shotted these with an encounter power.

IMHO even tough minions ought to go down to a Striker who gets his extra damage -- like a Rogue who bothers to get flanking, or a Ranger who takes the time to Quarry a minion. Similarly, IMHO it's entirely appropriate to one-shot a tough minion with an Encounter power.

I used 3:1 for these, and I use 6:1 for normal minions. I don't feel that 4:1 accurately reflects the threat posed by minions. They just die too fast most of the time.

Send them in in waves! That also limits the effectiveness of ginormous Encounter powers like Solar Wrath.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Amaroq]

I aim for a "sweet spot" somewhere around the value the team's fighter ought to do on an At-Will, with a roll of 8 on his damage die.

In my opinion, an Encounter, an At-Will crit, or a max-damage-roll ought to off a minion.

I think that works out nicely in that, for example, "Cleave" doesn't kill the minion, but does give the fighter a 50-50 shot to kill the minion next round.

A Striker with Hunter's Quarry, Warlock's Curse, etc., should really knock 'em down more often than not.

 

[Starfox]

I've been thinking Fortitude Defense would work well as a Hp threshold.

• It scales with Con
• It scales with level
• Brutes (whose concept is toughness) have a lot of it
• It is less predictable tan a straight level-based number
• It is already there in the monster stat block

 

[eriktheguy]

Fort is an interesting idea.

 

[Rachel]

I like a lot of the ideas here, I may have to steal some for my own games.

To have your idea "stolen" from these forums is a high compliment, so Im sure noone minds!

In the past, the way I've done 'tough minions' is to have them take 2 normal hits, but they go down in 1 if they are hit by a "big attack", such as a Crit or a 2W+ damaging attack. I felt this way, somebody who roles a Critical or who blows an Encounter power on them won't feel it was "wasted". And it still keeps things relatively simple.

I love this idea. The subject of minions is something I have thought about alot, and the issue just reared up in my humanoid hp shaving thread. It's viral! But, I am always looking for the simplest solution to an issue, and while all the suggestions here have merit, this one wins for me for that reason alone. Thanks for sharing it. Consider it "stolen". LOL

P.S. I would also like to say welcome to the forums.

 

[Zinovia]

I've been thinking Fortitude Defense would work well as a Hp threshold.

• It scales with Con
• It scales with level
• Brutes (whose concept is toughness) have a lot of it
• It is less predictable tan a straight level-based number
• It is already there in the monster stat block

That's a great idea as well. I will take a look at the typical numbers and see how that compares to 2*level +10. I think it will be a little lower, but that could be all to the good since my initial value may have been just a bit too high.

My objective with these guys is that they are mostly normal bad guys, but that two hits will take them out, and the occasional big hit will one-shot them. I like the no hp tracking feature of the tough minions. The point is to speed up combats but keep them tense and dangerous. I'm adding half-level damage to most of the bad guys, and shaving hit points on normal foes by somewhere between 10 and 25% on top of this tough minion mechanic.

My group has 2 dedicated strikers, a seeker and swordmage who both minor in striker, a warlord, and a sword and board fighter. They can lay down the hurt, but combats were *still* running long. Using lower HP, higher damage, and the minion variant worked well and the fight was relatively quick, while still being scary. I'll keep playing with the numbers a bit, but so far I think this is accomplishing what I set out to do with it.

 

[Zinovia]

I like a lot of the ideas here, I may have to steal some for my own games.

In the past, the way I've done 'tough minions' is to have them take 2 normal hits, but they go down in 1 if they are hit by a "big attack", such as a Crit or a 2W+ damaging attack. I felt this way, somebody who roles a Critical or who blows an Encounter power on them won't feel it was "wasted". And it still keeps things relatively simple.

Welcome to ENWorld. Steal away, that's what the forum is for!

And your tough minions are pretty much what I was looking for as well; guys that would die in two normal hits from at-wills, but could be one-shotted with a big hit. No tracking required for any of it.

 

[Starfox]

My group has 2 dedicated strikers, a seeker and swordmage who both minor in striker, a warlord, and a sword and board fighter. They can lay down the hurt, but combats were *still* running long. Using lower HP, higher damage, and the minion variant worked well and the fight was relatively quick, while still being scary. I'll keep playing with the numbers a bit, but so far I think this is accomplishing what I set out to do with it.

To go off on a tangent, a 4E combat more or less has to have 4+ rounds in order to make choices of At-Will7Encounter7Daily powers meaningful. So the issue is not only how many rounds a fight is, but also how long each round takes to play - and minion variations won't change that.

 

[Amaroq]

Not necessarily, Starfox. It just minimizes the value of At-Wills, and places a lot of emphasis on Encounter minors and Immediate Reaction/Interrupt powers.

If your encounter lasts three rounds, you're likely to break out something like Daily, Encounter, Encounter with your Standards, so your At-Wills become less useful.

On the other hand, and Encounter power which is an Immediate Interrupt attack allows you to squeeze a third Encounter into the limited space of the combat.

I've seen a low-level Ranger build which was really optimized around that: the Minor "Off-Hand Attack" and "Disruptive Strike" both let him make attacks on the enemy's turn(s), focusing his Dailies on heavy striker output. In a three-round fight, he could bust out 2 Dailies, 2 Encounters, and a Twin Strike at Level 5 ... but by Round 4 and beyond he was down to At-Wills.

It simply changes what build(s) your game rewards.

 

[Amaroq]

Though I do agree with you that the issue is less "how many rounds in a fight?" and more "how long does each round take to play?"