Tough Minions

[SlyFlourish]

So my group has been complaining that minions are too easy. They never pose much of a threat and usually a well placed area attack takes them all out.

So I had an idea that came from the Song of Blades and Heroes tabletop wargame that I'm dubbing "tough minions".

A tough minion is just like a regular minion except the first time it is hit or takes damage, it is knocked prone instead of dying. If it is hit while prone, it dies. Just like any other creature, it can stand as a move action and return to battle.

This has a few advantages:

1. No single big AE attack can kill a pile of minions.
2. It is still very easy to track minions - they are either standing or prone. You don't have to do any record keeping.
3. They are tougher to kill - usually requiring two hits in a round to kill.
4. Being knocked prone takes away their move action so there's a disadvantage to the minion for returning to standing.

I'd think the experience points for a tough minion would be about double a regular minion but given that minions in general are over-priced experience-wise, I'd probably just replace them.

I plan on trying this out the next time my group faces minions.

What do you think?

 

[op1983]

Another way to do this would be to budget double the number of minions present at the encounter. After they fall they can all get back up once.

 

[keterys]

It's troubling to me because it means that in a one on one fight between a minion and many PCs... the minion wins, because the PC knocks it prone but it just stands and attacks, each round. That doesn't seem right at all. Also, things like a daily critical for 60 damage won't kill a minion seems wrong.

 

[Fede]

I don't understand, can it only be killed while prone, or it needs 2 hits and the first one of them makes it fall prone in addition to other effects?

Also, what happen if it hit the minion with an attack that makes it prone? (eg. spinnig sweep)

 

[SlyFlourish]

It can only be killed while prone. Attacks that knock it prone do so but it doesn't die because it wasn't prone when the attack hit.

I think this might work particularly well for zombies and undead who just seem to keep coming back. You wouldn't want to do this for ALL minions.

 

[Rel]

Them only being killable while prone seems kind of weird and artificial to me. But I do like the idea of them being knocked prone on the first time they take damage and the second time they take damage they are dead.

 

[keterys]

Actually... quick fix... knocked prone and dazed until end of its next turn. That would prevent the minion from just standing up over and over and over while also swinging, and it's pretty appropriate for zombies.

 

[SlyFlourish]

So I used this on the shards of Karavakos in the final Pyramid of Shadows battle and it worked very well. It was different enough that it suddenly required players paying attention to minions. They didn't have a hard time killing them, but it meant pairing up and teaming against each minion.

There wasn't any problem with minions standing up after being knocked prone. Area effect spells still killed them pretty easily as long as it was an ongoing effect.

I definitely plan on using this more - not all the time but when it makes sense (like zombies or undead or constructs).

Give it a try and see what your players think.

 

[KarinsDad]

I'm not too keen on the knock prone rule. It shouts to the players MINION (which is also something I do not like about how the core rules can be used).

For me, the problem is not just that they are so easy to kill, but also that the PCs are quickly given meta-gaming information that a foe is a minion and hence, they change their tactics accordingly.

I dislike the concept of minions with the word Minion stamped on their foreheads.


I use a tough minion system of:

When a tough minion fight starts, secretly roll a single die. Even result means even kills tough minion. Odd means odd.

When a PC hits a tough minion and his total to hit is even and the random roll was even, the minion dies in one shot.

When a PC hits a tough minion and his total to hit is even and the random roll was odd, the minion is hurt.

A tough minion can take 2 such shots before being killed on the 3rd. If it is hit a second time and is not killed, it is bloodied.

So, a 50% chance of killing a minion on the first hit. A 25% chance of killing a minion on the second hit. And, a 25% chance of bloodying the minion on the second hit and killing it on the third hit.

I also have the tough minions roll dice for their attack damage and I double the XP for tough minions.


The advantages of this system are:

1) The players are not sure whether a given foe is a minion or not early on, maybe even not for the entire encounter.

2) Minions are not always cardboard opponents easily taken out with area effects.


Note: Do not tell your players how you are running this. It can also be done even/odd D20 result, even/odd damage for non-AoEs, etc. And, the DM can mix up encounters with minions, or tough minions, or a combo of both (along with other monsters). But, mix the system up from encounter to encounter so that the players have a difficult time of figuring out how it works.


Now, people might state that this takes a very minor amount of bookkeeping. If the minion was hit once and not killed, yes the DM has to make a mark next to the minion's name on his monster sheet (or whatever he uses) to indicate that the minion was hit once. The bloodied indicator on the board indicates that it was hit twice and not killed.

 

[JoeNotCharles]

Personally, I just say: first hit bloodies, second hit kills. (If I feel that the first hit was big enough - ie. a critical or a daily power that rolls well - I just kill on first hit.)