Toying with reducing the number of named bonuses

[Plane Sailing]

I'm toying with the idea of reducing stacking headaches by reducing the number of named bonuses which are available.

In particular, I'm thinking of making all magical bonuses merely "magical".

Thus enhancement, deflection, luck, resistance, and any other weird and waggly magical "sources" of bonus become just plain "magical".

This will prevent multiple stacking (enhancement + deflection+luck) and as such will reduce the maximum AC available, but are there any other issues?

Regards,

 

[Zad]

If you change the names of the bonuses and don't change your stacking rules, you're basically creating a lower powered world. People will have lower saves, stats, and so on.

I think the balance problem might come up because the players will be nerfed a lot more than most monsters would. You would have to take care to tailor the encounters to the lower power level of the party. At low levels it won't mean anything since they won't have many items, but at high levels, it will be dramatic.

Also, you are going to have a hard time motivating and rewarding the players in the mid-late levels. What good is money if you can't buy any useful magic items? If all the magic items won't stack with each other, then you have a harder time rewarding them with cash or items. They'll want fewer, more powerful items, and because of the exponential cost increase of magic items for a higher bonus, they won't be able to afford it.

I'm curious what problem you're trying to solve. Is the problem that you think the system of bonuses is too confusing? Or is it that you want a lower-powered world?

 

[Piratecat]

Many spells are predicated on specific bonuses which are expected to stack. Removing this system makes many spells and class abilities (such as the bard) effectively useless, and certainly less interesting.

 

[Phaedrus]

I agree with Zad.

Take a look at the Greater Balor thread on this same forum. +70 attack bonus. Without stacking bonuses to AC, how is a party supposed to even come close to not being hit every time?

 

[Orco42]

If you do rule that all AC bonuses are simply magical you should make them apply in all cases (touch attacks and flat footed) to make up for the lower ACs.

But stacking bonuses in one of the most fun things about the game.

Why get an Amulet of Nat. Armor +5 for 50k when you can get an Amulet of Nat AC +2, Armor +2, Deflection +2, Enhancement, +1 Insight for only 37k.

It teaches your players to be creative and thrifty.

 

[AeroDm]

I also agree that it is a bad idea because I tried to do the same thing and found that it just wasn't worth the trouble. There really aren't that many that come into play often, and those that are rare and pad out the list exist for a reason. Removing Luck bonuses, or the Haste bonus, is not a good idea.

One of the problems is that when you cut certain bonus types problems arise when they are dropped into new categories. For isntance, cutting the haste bonus it seemed logical to put it into Dodge. But dodge bonuses stack, so haste and speed now stack. If you were to make it magic, as you suggested, then it doesn't work with anything. You nerfed the nerfed haste.

Regardless, before I judge too much I'd liek to see your proposed list.

 

[Nightfall]

And just what is wrong with sacred, profane and titanic bonuses?!!

 

[Plane Sailing]

An alternative is to remove stacking rules altogether and let everything stack...

Basically I want to simplify the game. When you've got a party of five, some of whom with rings of protection, some of whom with cloaks of resistance, all of which are under a bless, then the bard starts singing and the mage casts protection from evil 10ft radius and the cleric casts prayer... it is a nightmare trying to keep track of what everyones bonuses are.

I don't intend to issue laptops and spreadsheets for everyone!

So I've not stopped toying with the idea, unless I can come up with a better solution to the game management problem. It was never this bad in previous editions, and I think the multiplicity of named bonuses is a problem rather than a solution.

Thanks for the input so far though.

 

[Piratecat]

It was never this bad in previous editions, and I think the multiplicity of named bonuses is a problem rather than a solution.

In some ways it was worse. Rings of protection didn't work with any armor or shield, but did work with bracers of defense, while cloaks of protections didn't work with them. Or something. We used to debate this ad infinitum.

Letting them all stack is even worse, because it's highly subject to abuse.

How about just getting rid of certain bonuses? Sacred, luck, that sort of thing.

 

[Zad]

Basically I want to simplify the game. When you've got a party of five, some of whom with rings of protection, some of whom with cloaks of resistance, all of which are under a bless, then the bard starts singing and the mage casts protection from evil 10ft radius and the cleric casts prayer... it is a nightmare trying to keep track of what everyones bonuses are.

I don't intend to issue laptops and spreadsheets for everyone!

The devil you say! <quietly hides his multi-page spreadsheet, without which he can't even play his epic character>

There's no question that it's complicated. And it hits at a certain point in the power curve. At first it's easy - you have nothing. Then you get in mid levels and stuff starts piling up. By the end of mid levels you start tearing out your hair.

But it does eventually abate and get easier. Partly this is just experience with the common bonuses. Partly this is due to a lower number of spells flying - yes you heard me right. I no longer care about the Magic circle vs evil because the deflection bonus from my ring of protection is higher. You start to see slightly fewer buffs because the character's items trump the effect.

It is a mess at times. And I feel your pain, trust me. The problem is that if you tinker with that core mechanic, it can cause a lot of ripples that might end up causing more net problems. The easier thing might be to try to find buff-management solutions like the old index card thing or something.

Wish I had a better idea ;(