Transforming the Gestalt rule into a template ?

[JiCi]

Here's the idea: I want to play a Gestalt character in a non-gestalt campaign. As you guessed, it's not a good idea due to balance issues, BUT I had the brillant idea of making a gestalt template instead, which would have the [Ex] ability to level up in two classes simultaneously as per the Gestalt rule in Unearthed Arcana. The flavor could be a many-minded character, a Schism power gone wrong, a synad off-spring, a many-reincarnated character or what so ever.

I'm thinking of making a simple template of CR +4 and LA +5. What do you guys think ? Would be it a balanced idea ?

Here's a sample:
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Gestalt

Flavor text goes here

Creating a Gestalt creature

Gestalt is a template that can be applied to any creature capable of leveling by character class, referred to hereafter as the base creature.

Size and type: Same as the base creature.

Special Qualities: The base creature gains the following ability described below:

Gestalt Soul: The base creature can level up in two separate character classes simultaneously according to the Gestalt alternate rule described in Unearthed Arcana.

Challenge Rating: as base creature +4

Level adjustment: Same as the base creature +5
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[Dagredhel]

A +5 level adjustment is too steep. One of the premises of the gestalt concept was that it *doesn't* double the power of a character due to the "economy of actions"... a gestalt character has more depth, has more options to choose from, but still has the same number of actions he can take to do one thing or another.

A 5th level gestalt isn't nearly the equal of a regular 10th level character multiclassed with a 5/5 split. The gestalt character gets the "best" of HD and saves, but the regular character gets both, added together, plus gains more from level advancement (bonus feats and ability score increases.)

A 10th level single-classed full caster should be able to wipe the floor with a 5th level gestalt character.

 

[JiCi]

You do bring up a good point there... what do you suggest then ? CR +2 / LA +3 ?

 

[Duskblade]

If you absolutely insist on a template I'd use the following:

CR +1.

LA +1. For thematically similar classes (barbarian/fighter, wizard/sorcerer, etc.).
LA +2. For non-thematically similar classes (barbarian/sorcerer, cleric/rogue).

 

[Mon]

I've seen a scaling LA/CR suggested in other threads on this topic (gestalt PCs in a non-gestalt campaign, or trying to use gestalt as an analogy for 1e/2e stlye multiclassing, or whatever). Something like this seems popular...

LEVEL : CR : LA
1-4 : +1 : +1
5-8 : +1 : +2
9-12 : +2 : +3
13-16 : +3 : +4

This covers ECL 2-20. Starting out as a gestalt (ECL1) is not possible unless you add something like...

Starting out at first level
* Hit die and skill points averaged
* One less 0- and 1st-level spell slot if you're a caster (because casters benefit the most from this)
* Don't get a 1st-level character feat
* When you gain enough XP to reach second level, you become a full 1st level gestalt character (best HD and skill points, all spells, 1st level character feat)

Never tried anything like it myself, though. Just putting it out there.

 

[JiCi]

Oh, I get it... you guys are suggesting something like the bloodlines, where you must "spend" a gained level to keep it balanced, right ?

 

[Mon]

Oh, I get it... you guys are suggesting something like the bloodlines, where you must "spend" a gained level to keep it balanced, right ?

Yep. I suppose so.

 

[JiCi]

I'm back, with the updated version:
--------------------------------------------
Gestalt

Creating a Gestalt creature

Gestalt is a template that can be applied to any creature capable of leveling by character class, referred to hereafter as the base creature.

Size and type: Same as the base creature.

Special Qualities: The base creature gains the following ability described below:

Gestalt Soul: The base creature can level up in two separate character classes simultaneously according to the Gestalt alternate rule described in Unearthed Arcana.

Challenge Rating: 1-14 HD: +1 / 15 HD and more : +2

Level Adjustment: 1-7 HD: +1 / 8-14 HD: +2 / 15 HD and more : +3
--------------------------------------------

How about it ?

 

[concerro]

Here's the idea: I want to play a Gestalt character in a non-gestalt campaign. As you guessed, it's not a good idea due to balance issues, BUT I had the brillant idea of making a gestalt template instead, which would have the [Ex] ability to level up in two classes simultaneously as per the Gestalt rule in Unearthed Arcana. The flavor could be a many-minded character, a Schism power gone wrong, a synad off-spring, a many-reincarnated character or what so ever.

I'm thinking of making a simple template of CR +4 and LA +5. What do you guys think ? Would be it a balanced idea ?

Here's a sample:
-----
Gestalt

Flavor text goes here

Creating a Gestalt creature

Gestalt is a template that can be applied to any creature capable of leveling by character class, referred to hereafter as the base creature.

Size and type: Same as the base creature.

Special Qualities: The base creature gains the following ability described below:

Gestalt Soul: The base creature can level up in two separate character classes simultaneously according to the Gestalt alternate rule described in Unearthed Arcana.

Challenge Rating: as base creature +4

Level adjustment: Same as the base creature +5
-----

Not all gestalts are equal. It may be better to rule it on a case by case basis.

 

[Nyeshet]

Also, there is another problem to consider. Some of the benefits of lower levels are worth far less at higher levels. And consider a Monk / Fighter. In effect the Monk is gaining a bonus feat every even level and Good BAB. Is that worth LA +3 at level 15?

Also, compare a Monk / Fighter with a Monk / Cleric. The first gains Good BAB and 8 bonus feats by level 17. The second gains 9th level cleric casting, 17th level cleric turning, and two domain abilities. Are the two really comparable? While the second might be worth LA +3 (if not +4 or even +5, depending on the domains), the first is barely worth +2, depending on feat selection.

Creating a workable Gestault system really is much more difficult than it looks.