Transforming the Gestalt rule into a template ?

[JiCi]

Not all gestalts are equal. It may be better to rule it on a case by case basis.

Creating a workable Gestault system really is much more difficult than it looks.

I know about that, and that's why I've been trying to figure out a good way to implement the Gestalt system into a non-gestalt campaign... but without having a case-to-case basis.

The thing is that gestalt characters are simply more versatile than single-class PCs. You're just choosing a new PC class with 2 different sets of abilities. Sure, a monk/cleric has high-level spells and a wicked attack routine, but it can't use both in the same round, compared to 2 separate PCs, a monk and a cleric, who can punch you down in no time AND cast powerful spells on you in the same round.

The Gestalt system applies equally to all classes, regardless of combinations, so to make a template that requires case-to-case examinations seems kinda discriminating to me.

There's gotta be a way to create an effective template without having to make adjustments on CRs and LAs because of X combos, I know there is...

 

[JiCi]

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[Nonlethal Force]

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Your bump worked!

Just curious ... are you doing this because you want an uber powerful character or because you want to combine different class abilities without loosing effective level in those abilities because of multiclassing rules? If your answer is the latter, please keep reading.

If what you are really saying is that you'd like to be able to play a character who can Rage as a 20th level barbarian and cast spells as a 20th level sorcerer (or pick any group of classes and abilities you like) then check out my sig. What you'll find there is a product called Complete Control. It takes every aspect of character buiding and puts an XP cost to it.

Essentially, it lets you build the character you want to play. You buy the Hit Dice you want. You buy the the saves you want. You not only buy the class abilities you wnt, but you buy them to the level you want! You can buy spellcasting or manifesting. You can buy feats as you want them. You can buy increases to your ability scores. Of course, you only can spent the XP that you earn in the game, so there are limits as to what you can buy, how much of it at any given point in the character's career, and when.

And yes, it has been designed so that the Core classes (including the XPH classes) balance within it. Furthermore, all of the Complete classes also work well with it. Since it is put out buy Dreamscarred Press, it has been tested with all of their classes as well.

The nice thing is that if you look at it and your gamingtable doesn't decide to go with it, it can still beused as a guide for you to build your own 20 level class ifyou want. That way, you don't need ot be gestault. You just need your DM to approve your creation. Anyway, check it out if you like. If you do and you like it, I can even give you a link to an Excel Spreadsheet that has been created to calculate all the math for you.

 

[JiCi]

Your bump worked!

Just curious ... are you doing this because you want an uber powerful character or because you want to combine different class abilities without loosing effective level in those abilities because of multiclassing rules? If your answer is the latter, please keep reading.

Hmmm... how to put it... I'm doing this to integrate the Gestalt system into a non-gestalt campaign. You see, the main problem with the gestalt rules is that you need to have gestalt NPCs to battle with your gestalt PCs. Furthermore, the encounters must be tougher, like 1, 2 or even 3 level higher than the party, in order to be challenging.

As many pointed out in and there, even if you have Rage and Arcane spells, you can't really use both at the same time: if you rage, you can't cast, and if you prefer to cast, you'll not rage. The gestalt system doesn't grant you more actions per round, it basically fuses 2 classes together into an entire new class, similar to the Druidic Avenger in Unearthed Arcana

I've decided to create a template for those, or even myself, who which to integrate a gestalt character into a standard campaign. Why a template ? because it's a good solution to implant a Level Adjustment, since a gestalt got a lot more attack and special options and qualities than regular characters. But the problem is that nobody can suggest me a good fixed CR/LA rate, such as...:

Challenge Rating: 1-14 HD: +1 / 15 HD and more : +2
Level Adjustment: 1-7 HD: +1 / 8-14 HD: +2 / 15 HD and more : +3

..., because they keep saying that it should be a case-to-case basis, which you don't have to deal with in a gestalt campaign, and which I don't want to deal with on my own either.

Thanks for the reference, I'll give it some thoughts.

 

[Aus_Snow]

I doubt that there is an effective way to put a single figure on it (or even a single figure for any given level range). So I'd start drawing up a short list of combos (or rather, types of combo, so that classes from other sources that are similar can be slotted in) with appropriate CR and LA mods for each.

But, um, that sounds like too much work for something I mightn't even use, so I'll leave it to you, or whoever else happens to agree with my view on it and wants to do the work, if you don't (agree, that is).

Good luck, either way! I do like the idea, FWIW. And actually, if it gets done properly (in my view) I might well be interested. It would be kinda neat.

 

[JiCi]

I'm back, and here's the best CR/LA adjustment I could come up with:

Challenge Rating: +1 per 5 HD (minimum +1)
Level Adjustment: +1 per 4 HD (minimum +1)

Why this ? Take for example the MYSTIC THEURGE. What's the usual combination for a balance 20th-level character ? Wiz 5 / Clr 5 / Mystic Theurge 10, or if you prefer A CR/EL 20 character with a [base] 15th caster in each class. If that's not convincing enough, take any prestige class that requires multiclassing, you'll notice soon enough that these prestige classes increase the abilities of both base classes a little but not completely.

So what do you think ?

 

[milo]

You can't really compare gestault to a mystic theurge. Sure it has two different classes of spellcasting, but it has D4, 1/2 BAB, and only one good save. If you were going to do a sor/wiz gestault it would be a fairly even comparison, but it breaks down very quickly in any other case.
What classes are wanting to play, just out of curiosity?

 

[JiCi]

You can't really compare gestault to a mystic theurge. Sure it has two different classes of spellcasting, but it has D4, 1/2 BAB, and only one good save. If you were going to do a sor/wiz gestault it would be a fairly even comparison, but it breaks down very quickly in any other case.
What classes are wanting to play, just out of curiosity?

Actually, I'm not really intending to play a specific class combo; I'm looking for a way using a template to use the gestalt rule in a non-gestalt campaign.