Trapfinding as a Feat

[Herzog]

A discussion about trapfinding as niche-protection for rogues triggered me to come up with a 'solution'. I dislike the idea of having to have a rogue in the party to disable the traps. Or even having to take a single level of rogue to get the ability, even if you're not interested in any of the other features of the class. (NB: this goes for other niche-abilities, like turn undead, as well, but I already started a thread about that one, and I'll probably start others in due time as well....)

So, I'm making Trapfinding a Feat. Same benefits as the rogue class feature. Rogues get this feat as a bonus feat at first level.

I'm also considering making search, open locks and disable device class skills if you take this feat.

Would that make this feat overpowered?

Note that I have no problem whatsoever with taking so called 'niche-abilities' from one class and adding them to another through feats. I'm just wondering about the addition of making skills class skills.

If it does make the ability too powerfull, maybe I should add that as a second feat: make two or three skills class skills.

what do you think?

 

[El Mahdi]

Personally, Yeah I think that would be overpowered. In my games, I make each one a seperate Feat, but tastes vary.

Do I think it would adversely affect your game at all? Probably Not, especially if you don't have a Rogue in the party.

If you don't have a Rogue, and you need some of those skills in the party for the sake of your campaign/adventures, I don't see why this wouldn't work.

If you do have a Rogue, and another player just wants some thieving abilities, Yeah, I think it would be to overpowered to give them all of these as class skills for the cost of one Feat. However, since you aren't giving them Sneak Attack also, I don't think it would unduly unbalance the game.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I think trapfinding itself as a feat is fine. Adding the class skills is too much, though. Make that a second feat if you must, or use the existing feats in non-core to gain them as class skills. Or play a human with able learer, to at least buy them as crossclass at the class skill rate. Add in a single level in anything with the needed class skills (or expert...) and you can have the class skill maximum of level +3 AND pay for it on a one-for-one basis with any class.

EDIT: And there is no "niche" protection for Rogues from Open Locks, other than the few classes that get it on their lists. Ie, it's no more niche-protected than spellcraft is for casters. Or Survival for nature classes, etc...

 

[Voadam]

Overpowered? Not IMO. I have a hard time thinking of skills as a significant power mechanic. I house rule that everybody in my games can use search without limits (core trapfinding) and give rogues and beguilers an auto check similar to elves searching for secret doors as their new trapfinding ability.

Open locks as a distinct skill has nothing to do with traps or trapfinding though. If you keep OL in you might rename the feat to something like "Thievery".

 

[Drowbane]

Doesn't even register on the "Holy crap, thats borken!" scale.

"Trapfinding [general]
blahblahblah
Prereq: desire to be thief-like
benefit: as the rogue class feature.

I haven't used "class skills" for a couple years now.

IMC Rogues got some new goodies, so they don't even notice that the fighter can find traps and be sneaky now.

 

[Stormborn]

I allow Trapfinding as a feat in my campaigns, but make Disable Device a prereq. Its not a problem. As long as you are not worried to much about class skills giving those out isn't a big deal either.

 

[Ahnehnois]

I see two possible objections to such a feat:

1 - It's overpowered.

2 - It makes the rogue less useful/unattractive.

Given that there are low to mid-level spells that duplicate other rogue class abilities (Knock being the prime example), I don't see it as being that powerful.

Given that rogues are one of the most popular and powerful (and versatile) classes, I don't see that losing the uniqueness of trapfinding is a big deal.

You're not just spending a feat to duplicate the rogue's trapfinding-you're spending a feat and a ton of skill points (and possibly items and so on), and yuo're doing so with a class that was not balanced to have to max two skills just to find traps and secret doors.

Of course, if you run a dungeoneering, trap-heavy game, this could change somewhat, but on the whole I don't see it as being a problem (and I've been mildly annoyed such a feat was never published). I don't see class skills as ever being much of a balance issue either.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Given that there are low to mid-level spells that duplicate other rogue class abilities (Knock being the prime example), I don't see it as being that powerful.

What if you think those spells are distasteful and don't want even more of that crap in your games?

Given that rogues are one of the most popular and powerful (and versatile) classes, I don't see that losing the uniqueness of trapfinding is a big deal.[/QUOTE]

Popular, yes. Powerful? *laughs* Contrary to what you may think, popular and powerful are not necessarily related at all. For reference, see bard love and "I'm not playing the healbot."

You're not just spending a feat to duplicate the rogue's trapfinding-you're spending a feat and a ton of skill points (and possibly items and so on), and yuo're doing so with a class that was not balanced to have to max two skills just to find traps and secret doors.[/QUOTE]

What? The Rogue's spending those same skill points. You pay a feat to get the Trapfinding ability Rogues get as a class feature (much like you pay a feat to get the Ranger's Track feature), and you now have the "privilege" to pay an obscene amount of skill points to use it and put yourself in harm's way while the party waits in a safe area nearby. ...Just like the Rogue! Oh, but rogues get all those skill points so it's less painful, you say*? Ok then. Most other classes will be getting higher HD and fort saves to survive traps, so clearly if you're bundling class skills into this trapfinding feat, Rogues should be getting bonus hp and saves, correct?

Do you plan to bundle Survival as a class skill into Track? Or...just let it be and leave things as is so the people who pick another class with it as a skill or take the extra effort to make it a class skill pick it up? Cause I'd really be amused by your RL experiences of players w/ no access to Survival as a class skill taking Track as a feat and then getting all upset like they were hoodwinked.



*Side-rant: Sick of this argument. Rogues are expected to handle a lot of skills, they are just as skill starved as any other class, sometimes more-so. I guess a side-side-tangent, just to be fair: barbarian's d12 isn't as huge a boon as it first seems by the same token. The weaker armor proficiencies and tendency of the main class feature to further reduce AC means the higher HD is at best making up for the other deficiencies.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

I haven't used class skills in years now. So, my suggestion is that you don't fold them up into the Trapfinding feat - just throw them out completely. Skills aren't powerful enough themselves that dropping the class skill mechanic is going to truly change the game that much.

As for making it a feat in the first place, I don't think it is unbalanced at all. Especially if you drop the class skill mechanic completely for everyone. But then again, I play in a game (and designed a system) where there are no longer any classes at all. Each player designs their own character exactly the way they want them. You spend your earned XP to buy access to feats, abilities, skills, etc. So I game with trapfinding fighters all the time. I also game with really useful bards, too. It is amazing what fun can be had if you drop the concept of "class abilities" (and of course still try to maintain balance). See my sig if you are interested.

 

[Celebrim]

I notice that everyone who is complaining about how skills have low value seems to be advocating increasing the supply of skills.

I find that really ironic.

I grant you that there isn't nearly as much OMG that's cool associated with skills as there should be, but handwaving all skills is no way to fix the problem. Rather, it suggests an attitude of 'skills shouldn't be important, valuable, or cool' that is being excused by 'skills aren't important, valuable, or cool'.

Personally, I wouldn't think that Trapfinding as a Feat would be overpowered, though it would begin pushing on the Rogue's niche although not that hard (since only classes with search could do so, and they are very rogue-like in general). I personally think that I'd be more likely to give situational trapfinding as a Feat (or class ability) similar to Dwarven Stonecunning. You can find traps of this sort or in this situation, but only Rogues can do it generally (or at least generally without heavy investment). No, rogue? Find other ways to circumvent or deal with traps (uncanny dodge, lots of hit points, magic, ect.). But, I can definately see some situations where Trapfinding as a feat makes sense.

I think Trapfinding plus access to three skills is worth about a feat and a half. It's not over the top, because the three feats aren't particularly important (except search) and are hard to take advantage of if you aren't a theif, but it is a pretty good deal. It would be like Track coming with Survival, Search, and Knowledge (Nature), only slightly more powerful, because Trapfinding is quite a bit better than Track. Track + 3 skill access actually bothers me a good deal less, and really, makes Track a good bit more attractive than it is now.

All of this though pushes toward devaluing the attribute intelligence, classes with good skill access, large numbers of skill points, and skills themselves. It suggests that you are better off taking a class with other advantages and buying skills cheaply if you want them. I suspect it also encourages heavy investment by everyone in the party in the same few skills that remain relevant in such campaigns - spot/listen (probably merged into perception), search, tumble (for melee types), use magic device, and perhaps a few social skills.