Trash mob fights

[Rolenet]

In this thread, [MENTION=6704184]doctorbadwolf[/MENTION] said:

Also, I'll have very short, 1-2 round max, "trash mob" fights that string together with exploration skill challenge parts into an encounter.

Can you expand? Do you use some kind of minion? Does the fight integrate with SC results?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

In this thread, [MENTION=6704184]doctorbadwolf[/MENTION] said:



Can you expand? Do you use some kind of minion? Does the fight integrate with SC results?

I would love to!

So, I do use some minions, but I also use "standards", and sometimes I'll have a brute surrounded by a couple three minions or just level-X standards, etc. so, let's imagine a hallway, with a few rooms on either side. Before entering the hallway, you encounter two guards, take them out easily, 1 round. Then, their keys don't unlock the door! It's got some kind of trick to it, so thievery, and perception, and a couple Int checks (because 4e doesn't have any kind of "Riddle" skill, or an Investigate skill. In 5e, there'd be a thievery, perception, and Investigate check), and finally an athletics check bc one of the Int checks failed, and the door is finegled open.
Next, you get ready for a fight. The rogue uses a mirror to see around the door without exposing herself, and there are 3 archers approaching the door, still a good 40 feet or so away, so the ranged weapons come out, and the Archer get taken down in another round, and the monk and Assassin sweep in to trap the bodies quietly and stash them.
The group makes a stealth check (same as 5e, and I count it as one check in the skill challenge), and start moving down the hall, rogue on point searching for traps and hidden stuff.

Now, already, you could argue that there has been two combat encounters, but that just doesn't make sense to me, so, instead, the encounter hasn't ended. After that they clear the first room with its brute enforcer and recruits, and spend time searching it, and tying up prisoners (this group tends to incapitate and immobilize if hey can, rather than kill). When they enter the room, a recruit thinks fast and tries to sound the alarm, but the rogue beats their initiative and I let her throw a dagger into the alarm mechanism, stopping it long enough for her to get to it and try to turn it off before it sounds (thievery), while the Swordmage deals with an intricate magical trap that is trying to go off and electrocute the rogue (Arcana), and the scholarly Warlord points out an odd bit of lore that helps solve what is basically another puzzle, making the other checks easier (History), all in the midst of a fight. The rogue and swordmage basically aren't in this fight, and so the monk, warlord, and and Assassin are basically on their own.

Now, at this point, I give them a short rest, encounter 1 over. Due to the need for speed and stealth, they expended more resources than the challenge would normally suggest, and other than the recruits, it was all at or above their level. The last fight took 2 rounds, and the hallway fight basically did, and every part of it included skill checks as part of the challenge of getting that far into the keep without triggering alarms or traps. So, I give xp as if it were a single challenging encounter, level +1.

The skill challenge I basically add in the xp budget as if every part of it (the door, the stealth/body hiding, and the trap/puzzle) are individual enemies. If the scene, instead, is mostly skill challenge with a little fighting, it's even easier, because enemies have an xp value, so I add that, and increase the effective challenge of the skill challenge by one step for a few at level enemies.

I've done longer encounter strings, too. One involved a chase, with multiple fights where the point was to clear a path and get away after their prey, while the baddie used terrain and his buddies to slow the party down and get away. It started with an investigation scene, and ended with one last fight that finished off the baddie and his friends, and involved a few checks to get him down without him blowing up a market with an alchemical bomb.

Making it multiple encounters, or separating the fighting and skill stuff, would have bogged the whole thing down immensely. Instead, it was fast paced, hectic even, and a helluva lot of fun.
XP budget and reward as a hard skill challenge, plus the xp value of the enemies.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

The main thing is, I don't feel compelled to add more enemies or beef them up just to meet an xp budget the traditional way. Sometimes, it's more fun to hit that challenge level by complicating the encounter with elements of a skill challenge, and string the encounter parts into phases.

 

[Garthanos]

, and string the encounter parts into phases.

Multi-phased encounters even full on combat ones rock in a general sense with big bads you can use dramatic scene shifts as part of it and introducing new environment features to interact with thereby.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Multi-phased encounters even full on combat ones rock in a general sense with big bads you can use dramatic scene shifts as part of it and introducing new environment features to interact with thereby.

Oh yeah, right now I'm prepping a 5e boss fight using a lot of 4e design principles, and the tricks we're talking about here. Multi-phase, dynamic terrain, skill challenge elements, etc.

 

[Grogg of the North]

Just to toss in my two coppers....

Sometimes it's nice for your players to suddenly encounter some speed bump encounters. Bad guys, monsters, guards what have you that were a pain a few levels ago are suddenly just a nuisance. It really helps the players feel like they've grown in power and that they're not just surrounded by weird bubble of CR appropriate monsters.

 

[Garthanos]

Just to toss in my two coppers....

Sometimes it's nice for your players to suddenly encounter some speed bump encounters. Bad guys, monsters, guards what have you that were a pain a few levels ago are suddenly just a nuisance. It really helps the players feel like they've grown in power and that they're not just surrounded by weird bubble of CR appropriate monsters.

Agree totally the DMG 2, I think even mentions something to this effect If I am recalling

 

[Rolenet]

I actually cannot fathom how one could play that way, especially what @doctorbadwolf describes.

It sounds ten shades of cool, exciting, and engaging at first blush. But when I compare it to the actual unfolding of a game session for the life of me I cannot see how I could make that work.

So let's start with one simple question, and I'll follow up.

The rogue uses a mirror to see around the door without exposing herself, and there are 3 archers approaching the door, still a good 40 feet or so away, so the ranged weapons come out, and the Archer get taken down in another round

Q1) How come the party take out the three archers so swiftly? Were they all minions?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I actually cannot fathom how one could play that way, especially what @doctorbadwolf describes.

It sounds ten shades of cool, exciting, and engaging at first blush. But when I compare it to the actual unfolding of a game session for the life of me I cannot see how I could make that work.

So let's start with one simple question, and I'll follow up.



Q1) How come the party take out the three archers so swiftly? Were they all minions?

One daily power, some encounter powers, warlord support, and most of the team is strikers. At level standards, and fewer of them than the party, arent hard to take down in 1 round.

Not that it matters if it's 1 round or 2.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Just to toss in my two coppers....

Sometimes it's nice for your players to suddenly encounter some speed bump encounters. Bad guys, monsters, guards what have you that were a pain a few levels ago are suddenly just a nuisance. It really helps the players feel like they've grown in power and that they're not just surrounded by weird bubble of CR appropriate monsters.

Agreed! My main thing is, I don't mess around with making these speedbump encounters into actual encounters, because it slows things down, and instead just keep the action moving forward with skill challenge mechanics, and more speed bumps.

They hit fewer milestones, but I just judge things by how much resources they've used, and will sometimes give a milestone anyway.