Traveller Is 45 Years Old Today!

Traveller was first created by Marc Miller in 1977, published as a box containing three black, digest-sized books by Game Designer's Workshop. The game was the first to use a lifepath system for character creation (one in which, famously, characters could die before play even began!) These days, the game is published by Mongoose Publishing.

Traveller was first created by Marc Miller in 1977, published as a box containing three black, digest-sized books by Game Designer's Workshop. The game was the first to use a lifepath system for character creation (one in which, famously, characters could die before play even began!) These days, the game is published by Mongoose Publishing.

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From what I know of Expanse:
It's seems without advanced tech, it's very difficult to hide a ship from sensors. Part of this is ships all over communicating, stations in the belt and on moons, etc... You need to be in deep space or hiding behind a large object like a moon or planet to avoid detection. So, typically there is no "surprise you didnt me coming!"

The missiles they fling at one another do seem to have their own propulsion system. Those in ships that can do 5,10+ G in thrust can potentially out run them and their fuel, problem is humans being able to withstand that force on their bodies for a prolonged period (missiles have unlimited thrust G, as no worry about killing anybody from the force). Usually doesn't work out for the runners.

Some ships (mostly war ships) have point defense cannons. These weapons fire slugs rapidly to try and take out the incoming missiles before they can hit their target and detonate. Most warship battles seem to be one of attrition. Keep firing at each other until one side gets through or runs out of ammo.

Few ships are equipped with rail guns. Also, some bases, moons, and other stationary places will have them for defense. As you figure they toss large chunks at super high velocities. Very nasty to get hit by them, especially if they hit the drive section.
I suspect it might be less easy to detect really stealthy stuff than what you are saying. While TODAY modern RAM and geometry cannot, for example, shield against S-band radars too well, the B-2, because it is entirely tailless actually doesn't show up on S-band much at all (the F-22 and F-35 do, quite well actually). So, I'd expect that by 2300 AD or whatever that we'd have pretty good stealth! Of course things like 'quantum radar' are likely to mean it will be a contest between sensors and stealth, much like it is today in the naval and aerospace regime. I guess positing that the sensors won that contest decisively is a defensible extrapolation. Still, I think it is likely to be quite possible to have small, stealthy, 'things' that can come at an opponent and get pretty close before detection. A lot of this will likely be due to the fact that active sensors basically broadcast your location, so their use will be pretty limited. Even today in an actual all-out battle ships and aircraft try to rely on passive detection until they make contact with, or are pretty sure about, the existence of an opponent within firing range that they want to attack or must defend against. Only large units that presumably cannot really hide, like carrier battle groups, would be constantly running search and fire control radars, as their general location is probably well-known already.
 

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payn

He'll flip ya...Flip ya for real...
I suspect it might be less easy to detect really stealthy stuff than what you are saying. While TODAY modern RAM and geometry cannot, for example, shield against S-band radars too well, the B-2, because it is entirely tailless actually doesn't show up on S-band much at all (the F-22 and F-35 do, quite well actually). So, I'd expect that by 2300 AD or whatever that we'd have pretty good stealth! Of course things like 'quantum radar' are likely to mean it will be a contest between sensors and stealth, much like it is today in the naval and aerospace regime. I guess positing that the sensors won that contest decisively is a defensible extrapolation. Still, I think it is likely to be quite possible to have small, stealthy, 'things' that can come at an opponent and get pretty close before detection. A lot of this will likely be due to the fact that active sensors basically broadcast your location, so their use will be pretty limited. Even today in an actual all-out battle ships and aircraft try to rely on passive detection until they make contact with, or are pretty sure about, the existence of an opponent within firing range that they want to attack or must defend against. Only large units that presumably cannot really hide, like carrier battle groups, would be constantly running search and fire control radars, as their general location is probably well-known already.
In space, I'm curious how you go about masking your heat?
 

In space, I'm curious how you go about masking your heat?
Well, look at JWST, it has a 'cold side' and a 'hot side'. So, a hot radiator located in a parabolic dish on the 'hot side' of your spacecraft can dump heat in a direction that HOPEFULLY doesn't contain any hostile sensors (guess what the other side wants to do). A maser or something might work, obviously what you can do is going to rely on tech speculation. Traveller already assumes some rather fanciful advances, so how you deal with that seems open to speculation. This is also ANOTHER reason you would probably like to put your 'hot stuff', like powerful active sensors, somewhere else besides stuck to the hull of your spacecraft.

Of course, even if you cannot mask your thermal signature well enough to sneak around, there's still 'emissions warfare', you can instead have THOUSANDS of contacts filling the enemy's screens, which do they shoot their 10 missiles at? And given the almost limitless range of comms in space, including things like tight collimation lasers that can't be detected or blocked, I would think that spreading your 'stuff' out hither and yon would make a lot of sense. For instance, if you know you are going into a fight, or suspect it, just pitch all your missiles out the hatch and let them float there until you have targets, then tell them to attack. That might not ALWAYS be possible or optimum, but it seems like these sorts of tactics would be pretty common (and you can imagine that a fixed location's anti-missile defenses would be of exactly this character).
 

Yora

Legend
I think the big issue is that you are either a radiation reflector or a radiation absorber. The later case makes you heat up and become an infrared emitter.

The best way I see to have a target not detect you is to spot them first and then somehow get into a position to approach with either the sun or a planet's day side in your back. You still emit heat, but that probably will get washed out by all the sunlight around you. But no clue how practical that might be because of the really wide arcs you might have to fly to get into position while stying at a safe distance.
It's probably most practical if you want to approach a location on a planet, as you can get into position while that location faces away from the sun and time your arrival time to be just when the sun is overhead of your destination.

Another thing is that all stars emit infrared light as well. The stars are of course much further away than another ship, but they also emit much more radiation. I'm actually curious at what distance the infrared from a ship becomes noticably brighter than the infrared from background stars. Unless the infrared scanners track the movement of every signature of all the stars, there should be a distance at which a ship is indistinguishable from a star in infrared. If that distance is close enough to be in any way useful is a different question.
 

I think the big issue is that you are either a radiation reflector or a radiation absorber. The later case makes you heat up and become an infrared emitter.

The best way I see to have a target not detect you is to spot them first and then somehow get into a position to approach with either the sun or a planet's day side in your back. You still emit heat, but that probably will get washed out by all the sunlight around you. But no clue how practical that might be because of the really wide arcs you might have to fly to get into position while stying at a safe distance.
It's probably most practical if you want to approach a location on a planet, as you can get into position while that location faces away from the sun and time your arrival time to be just when the sun is overhead of your destination.

Another thing is that all stars emit infrared light as well. The stars are of course much further away than another ship, but they also emit much more radiation. I'm actually curious at what distance the infrared from a ship becomes noticably brighter than the infrared from background stars. Unless the infrared scanners track the movement of every signature of all the stars, there should be a distance at which a ship is indistinguishable from a star in infrared. If that distance is close enough to be in any way useful is a different question.
Even empty space is filled with radiation at 2.7K... There's really no such thing as a situation where there isn't a 'noise floor', and if you can, even temporarily, be down right near that noise floor, then you WILL be hard to detect! Obviously coming out of the Sun might be one tactic, and maybe other celestial bodies would be similarly useful.

However, I don't think, realistically, we would want to look at space combat as about moving around in a 3D space so much as it would be about moving around in a 'phase space' which represented the time and energy required to go from a given point to any other point. In that kind of representation 'flying arcs' and things your earth-bound brain thinks of as tactics probably don't actually translate well. Its like fighter pilots, who think in terms of energy and not so much in terms of just position and velocity. While it isn't quite that simple and obvious I am reminded of Wrath of Khan where Spock says "two-dimensional thinking". I expect that space combat wouldn't be all that intuitive to humans at all, at a tactical level, and that would mostly fall to automated systems to deal with.
 


So basically the opposite of Classic Traveller Book 2!
Yeah, well, that's what I have been saying. While Traveller's space combat system is somewhat of a 'hard science' kind of thing, compared with most other similar genre material, Marc is not IMHO knowledgeable about these sorts of things. The system is intended to 'feel' hard, but also present a simple game where the action is explained in terms familiar to likely actual players, and centers on the PCs.
 


aramis erak

Legend
So basically the opposite of Classic Traveller Book 2!
Bluntly, CT Bk 2 is a minis game first, and a physics sim only in the movement phase, and that even being very low fidelity, as there's almost infinite delta-v...

Realistic? You drop a bunch of KKMs of very small sizes in your opponent's face, and hope your computer dodges at the right time and in the right direction to not eat theirs... It's all set up in the computers, and the meat aboard just rides out the 5 minutes of angsty approach, then the 30 seconds of sheer, absolute, total terror as you realize either you're going to be fine or you're going to be space debris any second now....
 

Bluntly, CT Bk 2 is a minis game first, and a physics sim only in the movement phase, and that even being very low fidelity, as there's almost infinite delta-v...

Realistic? You drop a bunch of KKMs of very small sizes in your opponent's face, and hope your computer dodges at the right time and in the right direction to not eat theirs... It's all set up in the computers, and the meat aboard just rides out the 5 minutes of angsty approach, then the 30 seconds of sheer, absolute, total terror as you realize either you're going to be fine or you're going to be space debris any second now....
Well, Traveller's ships were never very realistic in the larger sense. There's no realistic simulation of the elements of mass/energy/momentum which go into the rocket equation that dominates all else in the real world. On day one Marc simplified non-jump space travel to an extremely simplistic rule of thumb that doesn't even come close to working. It serves the RP purpose of describing what people think space travel in the far future might be like, and that's all. So when it came to space combat, what could they do? Realism already didn't fundamentally exist in the description of the ships and their function! Anyway, realistic would mean a lot of number-crunching and trying to visualize everything in not only 3D but Hamiltonian phase space! Good luck with that, not even NASA rocket scientists would like to play that game.
 

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