Treasure Discussion: AD&D1, D&D3

[Quasqueton]

To address questions on the data:

More generally, though, I am not sure what the point of this exercise is. Why do this comparison? The two games are so different in fundamental respects that the comparison looks pointless.

I think the two editions are so similar in fundamental respects that the comparison looks interesting.

Obligatory on-topic comment so that Quasqueton doesn't kill me: what would make the comparison more meaningful, at least on the 3.x side, is to see how the available loot tracks with the wealth guidelines in the DMG. By the time they finish the Sunless Citadel, would the PCs be wealthier than normal? About average? Less wealthy?

I'm curious about this too, but I'll leave that calculation to someone else.

Also, Quas., why are you excluding NPC/monster "material wealth" (armor, gear) from the 3.x lists? Aren't 3.x adventures supposed to take that gear into account when determining treasure values?

Think about what you are suggesting, here -- to calculate the value of every suit of armor, every weapon, every piece of mundane equipment? ;-) Besides, I think the value of gear is only taken into consideration for wealth calculation for leveled NPCs.

Quasqueton

 

[Grimstaff]

good thread, Quas, keep it going.

Already the big difference between 1E and 3E is evident: the rate of level gain, with 1E characters averaging 5th lvl after the 2 addies and the 3E team at 7th!

 

[Digital Archon]

good thread, Quas, keep it going.

Already the big difference between 1E and 3E is evident: the rate of level gain, with 1E characters averaging 5th lvl after the 2 addies and the 3E team at 7th!

Yeah, i'm looking at that and going "Whoa...waittaminnit!"

Are these adventures supposed to be really long, or what? I'm asking because i don't know the 3e stuff at all, never having bought them. 4 levels in a module like that seems pretty fast.

I dunno...maybe i'm just jumping at shadows.

I'm definitely interested in seeing where our interepid adventurers end up after the next post from Quasqueton.

Something else i'm interested in, and may crunch teh numbers myself over the weekend:
What would happen to 3e characters if they went through the 1e adventures, an the levels of treasure and experience remained the same? And vice versa.

 

[Glyfair]

Just to make this even less useful, I would point out that most of the 1st ed mods I remember didn't really assume that the party would find much of the treasure. I remember in particular balking at running A1 as written because of all the magic treasure, but both times I ran it most of the magic went undiscovered. I have not noticed this near as much in 3rd ed modules, but I have much less experience with those.

I think a good percentage of this has been the evolution of adventure design. In 1E, treasure was mostly stuff or players to find. As 3E evolved DMs and players started wondering "if this treasure is floating around, what aren't the monsters/villians using it?"

When a magic scroll of fireball is buried in a secret compartment in a bookshelf with hundreds of books, it might not be found, but it won't be used either. When the wizard has it to use against the party, it will probably be found - assuming the wizard doesn't use it against the party.

 

[Quasqueton]

4 levels in a module like that seems pretty fast.

Note: I made a mistake in that last party level. They should be all 6th level. I made the edit to the post.

[That's what happens when I post after 10:00 p.m. :-( ]

And for the record, The Forge of Fury says, in it's introduction, that the PCs should probably go from 3rd to 5th level. But the total xp I counted took them up to 6th.

The next adventure in the series is for 5th level PCs.

Note:

VoH - Moathouse: 35 numbered encounter areas

ToEE - Tower and Rubble: 4 numbered encounter areas

ToEE - Dungeon Level 1: 53 numbered encounter areas

ToEE - Dungeon Level 2: 46 numbered encounter areas

Sunless Citadel: 56 numbered encounter areas

Forge of Fury: 54 numbered encounter areas


I probably won't post more data till after Christmas.

Quasqueton

 

[Droogie]

Are you sure the party ends at level 7 for the Forge?

When I ran it, they ended at about 5, which also happens to be the level for the next module, Speaker in Dreams.


Edit: you beat me. Nevermind.

 

[demonpunk]

re

So 1st ed characters get more treasure but less levels, 3rd ed characters get more levels but less treasure. Does that seem right? Of course, the 1st ed characters don't get as much use out of their treasure because they can't sell items they won't use (so they have a lot of useless +2 weapons and armor, presumably to leave around for other adventurers to find ).

 

[Algolei]

This is great, Quas! The kind of thing I love doing myself.

Of course, the 1st ed characters don't get as much use out of their treasure because they can't sell items they won't use (so they have a lot of useless +2 weapons and armor, presumably to leave around for other adventurers to find ).

Oh, you (not "you" you; the adventurers) can sell them. You (again, the adventurers, not "you") just can't find anyone else dumb enough to sell them to you (the adventurers).

 

[diaglo]

This is great, Quas! The kind of thing I love doing myself.


Oh, you (not "you" you; the adventurers) can sell them. You (again, the adventurers, not "you") just can't find anyone else dumb enough to sell them to you (the adventurers).

yup... you've just killed the old rightful owners. and made claims to their stuff as yours now. so you sell your old stuff or trade it in for training.

whereas... the other stuff you want to buy is still in the hands of the rightful owners... family heirlooms... say.

the big thing was trying to convince the potential buyers that the stuff was magical.

PC1: i've got this potion i want to sell
NPC: what does it do?
PC2: i've been able to determine it makes you grow in size.
NPC: and how can you demonstrate that for me?
PC1 and PC2: we can't. it requires that you drink the whole thing.
NPC: i'll give you 2 cp for the glass vial.

 

[Janx]

bear in mind, the whole you can't buy magic items rule defied logic.

It was understandable that Gary didn't want to see magic shops all around (though I knew plenty of DMs that had them anyway). But the rules of Supply and Demand always apply. People want magic items (at the minimum, any leveled PC or NPC does). That's demand. If there is a demand, there will be a supply (heck, the PCs are generating a supply by killing monsters and having extra stuff). It may be black market, but to deny its logical existance is to bang your head against a rule that defies logic and then claim that you enjoy having a headache.

I used to agree with the "you can't buy magic items" rule, until I took an economics class, and realized that the rule was an artificial constraint on the game.

I think that was one of the most important innovations 3E made. To plot the powercurve of magic items and to manage the wealth generated by encounters. Without these tools, GMs were guessing, and often failing to keep the balance. D&D has always been about getting more items to do more things. A careless GM could tip the balance in the players favor.

One interesting thing to note from these adventures is the power level of the equipment.

The 1E PCs will have aquired a +3 sword and many +2 items. The 3E PCs will only have +2 items. I'm curious if 1E scales up faster than 3E.