Trick or treat?

[Umbran]

You all are talking about the weather for Halloween - here in Boston we have a Red Sox win. I wonder how many impromptu baseball players we'll get at the door this year...

 

[Umbran]

Is it really that bad a thing to tell fatties not to eat too much candy?

In a general sense, no, it isn't a bad thing. In a specific sense - there is a time and a place for everything. Telling someone something that they aren't going to want to hear in the wrong way will tend to increase their resistance to your statement, rather than their acceptance.

Grenhewe actually hit upon part of it upthread. Positive reinforcement training generally works better than negative reinforcement - you get better results if you reward desired behavior instead of punishing undesired behavior. Specifically, when you use negative reinforcement, you have little control on what the subject associates with the negative stimulus. When you give a kid that letter, they'll feel bad. So, what's more likely - they'll figure that it is the treats that make them feel bad? Unlikely. It is themselves that makes them feel bad? Possibly - so now they are feeling shame and lack of self worth, which is not actually a good way to get people to be healthy. Or, maybe it'll be the nasty, wart-ridden hag who gave them the letter? Also possibly - and thus the TP and flaming bags of nasty substances in her future.

 

[Kramodlog]

A holiday that encourage unhealthy habits sounds like a good time to do prevention.

Whelp, if a 91-0 loss at football is a teaching moment for kids, why can't this be a teaching moment too?

 

[Umbran]

A holiday that encourage unhealthy habits sounds like a good time to do prevention.

Well, you'd first have to establish that encouraging a bit of candy one day a year is really encouraging a long-term unhealthy habit.

And, my point is that no, during holidays probably *isn't* a good time to do prevention. The real issue is their habits the rest of the year, not on the holiday, so you're associating the correction with the wrong event. And, doing it especially on the holiday turns it into negative reinforcement, which is not a great or predictable tool.

Dietary plans that do not allow for occasional deviations are generally far more likely to be abandoned than ones that remain constantly strict. Giving someone a bit of excess to look forward to makes it a reward for being good most of the rest of the time. Thus, we'd be more successful if we encouraged the healthy habit year round, but allowing folks to enjoy on the holidays.

 

[Kramodlog]

I see you like to avoid questions.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

...why can't this be a teaching moment...

The football score came in the normal course of the game. There was no variance or singling out. The kids were treated the same. By all accounts- I live in the general area- the kids handled it better than the parent who is suing.

The fat kids get scolding notes while normal kids get candy is singling out kids for scorn and derision. It is taking a holiday and its traditions and making it into just another day of insults. See Jane Elliott's 1968 Brown Eye/Blue Eye experiment for the kind of moment that gets taught by doing so.

 

[Crothian]

A holiday that encourage unhealthy habits sounds like a good time to do prevention.

Whelp, if a 91-0 loss at football is a teaching moment for kids, why can't this be a teaching moment too?

It will be a teaching moment. It will teach people that if you do this you will get publicly shamed and ridiculed.

 

[Homicidal_Squirrel]

Grenhewe actually hit upon part of it upthread. Positive reinforcement training generally works better than negative reinforcement - you get better results if you reward desired behavior instead of punishing undesired behavior. Specifically, when you use negative reinforcement, you have little control on what the subject associates with the negative stimulus. When you give a kid that letter, they'll feel bad. So, what's more likely - they'll figure that it is the treats that make them feel bad? Unlikely. It is themselves that makes them feel bad? Possibly - so now they are feeling shame and lack of self worth, which is not actually a good way to get people to be healthy. Or, maybe it'll be the nasty, wart-ridden hag who gave them the letter? Also possibly - and thus the TP and flaming bags of nasty substances in her future.

Just want to point out a few things wrong with your comment. You are using positive and negative reinforcement incorrectly. The terms have nothing to do with good or bad. The terms positive and negative refer to the presentation or removal of a stimulus (reinforcer/aversive). So for example, if you were using a positive reinforcement procedure, you would be presenting some stimulus (reinforcer) contingent on the occurrence of a target behavior. Reinforcement results in an increase probability of the behavior occurring, or an increase in some dimension (rate, intensity, magnitude, etc.) of that behavior.
With a negative reinforcement procedure, you remove a stimulus (aversive), contingent on the occurrence of a target behavior. Because it is a reinforcement procedure, it still results in an increase in that target behavior.
Now, while you may think that you are using a reinforcement procedure, and that some stimulus you are presenting or removing is a reinforcer, it may not be the case. This terms (positive/negative reinforcement) are defined functionally. Meaning that the presentation/removal of a stimulus (aversive/reinforcer) results in an increase in the target behavior.
If you are attempting to decrease a behavior, you would use a punishment procedure. Punishment refers to a decrease in behavior. You can use positive and negative reinforcement to reduce behavior.

So, assuming that the letter actually results in the kids decreasing their consumption of candy and other fattening foods, this would be an example of a positive punishment procedure (trick or treat -> receive letter ->decrease consumption of fattening foods).

Finally, you can have very good control of the association in a negative reinforcement procedure.

 

[Homicidal_Squirrel]

It will be a teaching moment. It will teach people that if you do this you will get publicly shamed and ridiculed.

Some kids may not find the letter to be an aversive thing.

 

[Crothian]

Some kids may not find the letter to be an aversive thing.

Doesn't matter. A teaching moment and someone actually learning something are two different things. I was also referring that the teaching moment is probably aimed at the person handing out the letter not the kids getting them.