Trip with a whip

[GarethWarland]

Can someone explain the nuiances of tripping with a whip to me? In our last adventure, the DM brought out a whip wielding orc who was using two whips to trip numerous party members and gain attacks of opportunity for what seemed like days.

Basically he would attack first with main whip...trip someone to make them prone, then get an AoO with both whips. His cohorts would then jump in with their AoO. He would then attack with the second whip, knocking down another player, then the second attack on teh first whip to knock someone down, then the second on the next whip to knock someone down.

It just seemed insane the amount of people he could drop.

I imagine he had improvide trip and 18 strength. That gives what +7 total to trip?

My understanding, however, is that a whip cannot do any damage to someone with a +1 AC item on or +3 natural AC. I also understand that if he failed to trip, the target could then try to trip him back (which wasn't happening).

Is there anything else to this?

 

[shilsen]

Sounds like your DM needs to read up on the rules.

Firstly, tripping someone does not draw an AoO. Plus, whips don't threaten an area, so unless you're using something else to threaten the area, the person won't draw an AoO even if doing something that would normally result in one. Also, if someone draws an AoO you get one attack, so you can't take AoOs with two weapons on the same opportunity (and not with whips, as I mentioned above). If the PC was making trip attacks with Improved Trip and was successful, he would get a follow-up attack, but that's not an AoO.

As for your trip question, tripping with 18 Str (+4) and Improved Trip (+4) would give a +8 on the Str check.

Also, welcome to the boards.

 

[Deset Gled]

Well, for starters, a whip doesn't threaten, so you can't make an AoO with a whip. Also, it's impossible to get an AoO with two weapons. You only get one attack from a AoO, and thus can only use one weapon.

With 18 str (+4 mod), Improved Trip (+4) he would indeed have a +8 to trip. This will be difficult to overcome, but it's unlikely that it will win every time against a normal fighter.

Also, when you do make an AoO against someone for standing up (which, as I said before, you can't do with a whip), you cannot trip the target again. The AoO occurs immediately before the action that triggers it (standing up), so when the AoO happens, the target is still prone (and not subject to trips).

Of course, shilsen beat me to most of this.

 

[Hypersmurf]

+8 total (+4 for the feat, +8 for 18 Str).

If he fails to trip, you can attempt to countertrip, but he can choose to drop the whip instead.

Dropping someone prone doesn't provoke an AoO; it's not until you try to stand up that he gets to make an AoO, and it's only one, not one with each whip (assuming he somehow threatens - for example, a converted 3.5 version of the Lasher from Sword and Fist. Otherwise, as people have noted, no AoO at all!). Improved Trip, however, does mean that he gets to attack you (with one whip) 'for free' when he successfully trips you.

The cohorts shouldn't get to do anything until their own action comes up; again, no AoO is provoked until the prone character attempts to regain his feet.

-Hyp.

 

[RangerWickett]

I feel qualified to answer this question. I wrote the book about whips.

By the core rules as written (cRAW), whips cannot be used to make attacks of opportunity. They are a melee weapon, but they do not threaten an area. What I think might have been happening was that the whip wielder had Improved Trip, so he got an extra attack if he successfully trips a person.

I'll see if I can point out what's wrong by the cRAW. First, assuming he did have Improved Trip, he could succeed a trip with the first whip, and get a bonus attack against that foe. That's fine. But being tripped does not provoke attacks of opportunities (even though I can understand the reasoning that might say it should). So the orc's cohort should not have been getting AoOs either.

Also, even if you have two weapons, you only get one Attack of Opportunity for each opportunity. F'rinstance, if I cast a spell, and I'm surrounded by Frodo, Drizzt, and a Marillith, each one gets only one attack of opportunity against me.

A smart min-maxed Orc would have at least a 22 Strength and Improved Trip, giving him a +10 bonus to trip attempts. By the rules in 3.5, if he failed to trip you, you should get to try to trip him back. I recall, however, that in 3.0, Improved Trip let you avoid being tripped if your attempt failed. Or possibly people just confused it with Improved Disarm, which keeps your foe from getting a disarm attempt against you.

By the cRAW, whips don't deal damage to armored people. Which honestly is silly, if you understand the physics of whips compared to the physics of other weapons. A whip can cut small lizards in half, and smash glass bottles with ease. True, it can't get through a plate of metal armor, but neither can a shuriken in real life. This is D&D, though, and we let people inflict injury with shuriken and scimitars against people in full plate, so I always house rule that whips can hurt creatures regardless of their armor.

Now, it's possible the guy was using optional rules. With the right feats from the whips book I wrote, you can threaten an area 15 feet around you with a whip, making the situation more viable. Of course, you have to be 11th level to pull that off, though.

What's really fun is a colossal giant with a whip that has a reach of at least 55 feet (the rules for whips and reach are a little fuzzy). It gets a +16 size bonus to trip checks, and it's strength is ridiculous. If you make a high-Dex giant with Combat Reflexes, it will keep people down all day. *grin*

 

[Demoquin]

You could always use a whip dagger from Arms and Equipment Guide to deal leathal damage
1d6 ( i think 19-20/x2) 15' reach slashing


Could you dual wield a whip(dagger) and a rapier so that you could get those AoO's?

rapier main hand/ whip off hand so it is considered light

 

[Hypersmurf]

rapier main hand/ whip off hand so it is considered light

Both rapier and whip are one-handed weapons, so you wouldn't get the reduction in penalty for using a light weapon in your off hand.

-Hyp.

 

[Falkus]

Could you dual wield a whip(dagger) and a rapier so that you could get those AoO's?

Just take lasher from Sword and Fist. It stops a whip from provoking an AoO, and let's the whip threaten, though only up to five feet, not fifteen, because it would be heiniously sick and overpowered if it was fifteen. The lasher also let's you perform a bunch of cool Indiana Jones style stunts with whips at level 2.

 

[Felon]

Just take lasher from Sword and Fist. It stops a whip from provoking an AoO, and let's the whip threaten, though only up to five feet, not fifteen, because it would be heiniously sick and overpowered if it was fifteen. The lasher also let's you perform a bunch of cool Indiana Jones style stunts with whips at level 2.

The Lasher can also penetrate armor with his whips. Having a whip-master without the lasher PrC is just about patently insane.

There's a feat in CV which allows a character with two weapons to make an AoO with each of them.