Triple-empowered Bull's Strength?

[kreynolds]

I have played a moderately high level incantrix (lvl 15)

I'd be interested to know how you pulled that off, unless it was in an epic level game, of course.

 

[LokiDR]

I'd be interested to know how you pulled that off, unless it was in an epic level game, of course.

Very carefully, or should I say by not typing correctly. Total character level 15, with as many as I could get in incantrix, which I believe was 8.

 

[kreynolds]

Very carefully, or should I say by not typing correctly.

LOL

 

[Catalyst]

To the poster who felt the stacking probably wasn't intended in the core rules, I have to disagree with you as it has since been clarified as legal in the DnD FAQ on the WotC website. They were asked the question by worried DMs everywhere, and said "Yes, you can stack the effects."

I've heard one house rule that seems logical, that Improved Metamagic reduces each type of feat once. So a single Empower would be a +1 increase, but each Empower after that would be +2. But, you could mix feats (Empower +1, Maximize +2, etc.), you just can't stack and gain the bonus for the same feat over and over.

I do disagree with apsuman, who says:

I think it is very straightforward:

All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by one-half. An empowered spell deals half again as much damage as normal, cures half again as many hit points, affects half again as many targets, etc., as appropriate. Saving throws and opposed rolls (such as the one the character makes when the character casts dispel magic) are not affected. Spells without random variables are not affected. An empowered spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell’s actual level.

Simply put it add 50% to any randomly determined spell effect.

(emphasis mine)
So far so good...

The +1 added to rolls is included in the empower.

Those magic missles would be doing (1d4+1) * 1.5

This completely disagrees with what you just posted above. Magic Missiles do 1d4+1. The 1d4 is a variable, numeric effect. The +1 is a determined numeric effect.

Take for example, an empower cure light wounds cast by a sixth level cleric. It would heal 1d8+5 (it's +1 per level, +5 max) puls 50% more, or more plainly, (1d8+5) * 1.5. That is the only way the feat leave for interpretation "cures half again as many hit points..."

I see what you're saying with the literal interpretation, but the feat as written does not do this. As you say, it's "+1 per level". That's not a variable effect. Honestly I'm not sure how I'd rule it, by the feat's wording or the interpretation that it's supposed to do "half again" whatever the spell does, regardless of whether the entire effect is variable or only part.

 

[apsuman]

To the poster who felt the stacking probably wasn't intended in the core rules, I have to disagree with you as it has since been clarified as legal in the DnD FAQ on the WotC website. They were asked the question by worried DMs everywhere, and said "Yes, you can stack the effects."

I've heard one house rule that seems logical, that Improved Metamagic reduces each type of feat once. So a single Empower would be a +1 increase, but each Empower after that would be +2. But, you could mix feats (Empower +1, Maximize +2, etc.), you just can't stack and gain the bonus for the same feat over and over.

I do disagree with apsuman, who says:
(emphasis mine)
So far so good...


This completely disagrees with what you just posted above. Magic Missiles do 1d4+1. The 1d4 is a variable, numeric effect. The +1 is a determined numeric effect.


I see what you're saying with the literal interpretation, but the feat as written does not do this. As you say, it's "+1 per level". That's not a variable effect. Honestly I'm not sure how I'd rule it, by the feat's wording or the interpretation that it's supposed to do "half again" whatever the spell does, regardless of whether the entire effect is variable or only part.

First, when trying to implement rules for a game, I think it best to apply a literal interpretation.

Now, back on point, the first sentence of the feat "All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by one-half."

With that sententence, I would agree that it implied (to me) that only the 1d4 part of the magic missle spell would be effected. However, teh second sentece applies clear direction "An empowered spell deals half again as much damage as normal, cures half again as many hit points, affects half again as many targets, etc., as appropriate."

Now, I do not see how you can subjectively apply that the +'s from the CLW are not the same as the +1 from the magic missles.

However, my trump card is in the PHB, "For example, an empowered magic missle deals one and one-half times normal damage (roll 1d4+1 and multiply the result by 1.5 for each missle)." PHB page 82.

a-ha!


g!

 

[James McMurray]

Ferret: Because each empower affects only the base spell, you have to do it differently than "standard" multiplication rules. Here's an example: 3 x Empowered Fireball (10d6 base, roll a 43).

The first empower causes the base damage to deal an additional 50% (43 / 2 = 21.5 rounded down to 21).

The second empower causes the base damage to deal an additional 50% (43 / 2 = 21.5 rounded down to 21).

The third empower causes the base damage to deal an additional 50% (43 / 2 = 21.5 rounded down to 21).

The total final damage from the spell is 42 + 21 + 21 + 21 = 105.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I'm just going to state my opinion on this. I don't have many facts to back it up. Please take this with a grain of salt.

[Opinion] The Empower Spell feat shouldn't be allowed to stack with itself. A special exception was made for the metapsionic feat Fortify Power, because psionic power damage doesn't freely scale.

Unfortunately, this caused problems with non-damaging psionic powers, such as Animal Affinity (which also grants a d4+1 increase to Strength and is a 2nd-level power).

The Sage probably didn't think of that, and he knows little about DnD 3e psionics. He did know about the feat though. [/Opinion.]

So he ruled that the feat stacks with itself, just like Fortify Power stacks with itself.

Originally found in Dragon 287
Fortify Power [Metapsionic]

You can manifest powers to greater effect.

Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of an fortified power are increased by one-quarter (minimum of 1). A fortified power deals an extra twenty-five percent damage, cures twenty-five percent as many hit points, affects twenty-five percent more targets, and so on, as appropriate. For example, a fortified lesser concussion deals twenty-five percent more damage (roll 1d6 and multiply the result by 1.25, with a minimum extra damage of 1). Saving throws and opposed rolls (such as the one you make when you manifest negate psionics) are not affected. Powers without random variables are not affected. A fortified power costs a number of power points equal to its standard cost + 2.

Special: You can apply Fortify Power to the same power multiple times. Each time you apply it, the power is fortified another twenty-five percent, and it costs 2 more power points.

For instance, a lesser concussion fortified 3 times deals 1d6 x 1.75 damage for a cost of 7 power points. You can't break the power point limit of the manifester level minus one when using Fortify Power multiple times on the same power. Thus, an 8th-level manifester could have used the power as described in the above example, while a 7th-level caster could not, though he could use Fortify Power twice on lesser concussion so that it deals 1d6 x 1.5 damage, for a cost of 5 power points.

 

[Squire James]

The Empower Spell feat has a little wrinkle in its description that could go either way. My reading of it was that it only added half the rolled dice, and my first thought was "how clumsy... I house rule it to a straight +50% add". Kinda like how I assume Cleave doesn't REALLY mean you can take an extra melee attack with your bow after putting someone down with an arrow (read the feat description carefully here)! So I consider that one a no-brainer.

Like Order of the Bow Initiate (THREE epic feats possible as a level 12 character!), the Incantrix is imbalanced. I agree. The Improved Metamagic epic feat re-introduces the problem in short order. Yes, the "subtract the level after applying all metamagic feats" approach sounds like a good idea. I haven't run into the problem yet, because my Incantrix player hasn't really thought about stacking metamagic yet. Consider that idea stolen.

That may be enough for me to rethink my "no multiple Empower" rule. I'm still a bit leery about the Incantrix (or epic caster, if you like, not much difference at this point) triple-Extending 5 Energy Immunities so she can keep the immunities for 2 days and still replace the spell slots. I guess that's what Horrid Wilting is for...

 

[apsuman]

The Empower Spell feat has a little wrinkle in its description that could go either way. My reading of it was that it only added half the rolled dice, and my first thought was "how clumsy... I house rule it to a straight +50% add". Kinda like how I assume Cleave doesn't REALLY mean you can take an extra melee attack with your bow after putting someone down with an arrow (read the feat description carefully here)! So I consider that one a no-brainer.

nonononono!

Of all the rules, I think empower is the CLEAREST. It says:

All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by one-half. An empowered spell deals half again as much damage as normal, cures half again as many hit points, affects half again as many targets, etc., as appropriate. Saving throws and opposed rolls (such as the one the character makes when the character casts dispel magic) are not affected. Spells without random variables are not affected. An empowered spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell’s actual level.


That is from the SRD. Additionally, the PHB says : "For example, an empowered magic missle deals one and one-half times normal damage (roll 1d4+1 and multiply the result by 1.5 for each missle)." PHB page 82.

They clarified EXACTLY what it means when they said that it does HALF AGAIN as much damage, cures HALF AGAIN has many hit points.

The only way to get HALF AGAIN is to do the normal calculation first, arrive at a result, then add 50% of that (alternatively multiply the first result by 1.5).

g!

 

[Iku Rex]

The total final damage from the spell is 42 + 21 + 21 + 21 = 105.

You need to read the DnD multiplying rules.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/DnD_PH_Glossary_GG.asp#2

Sometimes a special rule makes you multiply a number or a die roll. As long as you’re applying a single multiplier, multiply the number normally. When two or more multipliers apply, however, combine them into a single multiple, with each extra multiple adding 1 less than its value to the first multiple.

The final damage in your example is 43*2.5 = 107.5 (rounded down.)