Trips?

[Taren Seeker]

OK, I've been doing trip attacks the same way for the last couple of years, but I ran into a new interpretation yesterday.

My understanding:

A trip is a melee attack that can be made armed or unarmed. If you wish to make it armed, then you must be using a weapon that specifically allows trip attacks. If you are doing it unarmed, you generate an AoO.

From the SRD:

Chain, Spiked: A spiked chain has reach of 10 feet. In addition, the weapon can be used against an adjacent foe.

Because the chain can wrap around an enemy's leg or other limb, a trip attack can be made with it. If a character using a Spiked Chain is tripped during the character's trip attempt, the chain can be dropped to avoid being tripped.

Emphasis added.

So now I hit a problem. Under the description for unarmed attack there is no mention that you can trip with one, meaning that Monks cannot use unarmed attacks to take advantage of their improved trip ability and indeed the ONLY way to trip would be with an allowed weapon. This seems ridiculous. So now I start to question whether the entries in the equipment section are meant to be a complete list.

I've played with people now who claim that any melee weapon may be used to make a trip attack. The entries under the different weapons are always accompanied by the "weapon can be dropped to avoid a counter trip" proviso and that is actually the entire purpose for the lines to be in those descriptions.

So, can any weapon be used to trip? What am I missing?

Thanks.

 

[DarkJester]

Not any weapon can be used for a trip attempt. If it were so, all weapons would say you can drop it to negate the counter trip (you could drop any weapon as easily as enough,exception bladed gauntlets).

I'm 100% sure monks can make trip attempts, they get improved trip after all. I'm not sure on where that would be specificly stated though.

 

[dcollins]

Trips are by default unarmed. Only the specifically named weapons can be used in trips. This was confirmed by the Sage.

"The description of unarmed attack" that you're referring to is most likely the description of unarmed strike. Not only does it not mention trips, it doesn't mention grapples, bull rushes, overruns, or disarms, either.

 

[Taren Seeker]

Hmmm, thanks for the responses. I didn't think of the difference between unarmed strike and unarmed attack.

I think I have enough to take back to that group.

The last problem is that if you're doing the trip unarmed, does it generate an AoO? Bull Rush and Disarm both specify an AoO while Trip does not. Does the AoO condition from attacking unarmed trump the Trip attack mode?

 

[jontherev]

A trip is an attack action, which can be made either unarmed or with special weapons. Notice under trip it says, "Making a Trip Attack: Make a melee attack as a melee touch attack." You don't usually make melee touch attacks with a weapon.

Oh, and yes you provoke an AoO for attacking unarmed unless you have the IUS feat or are a monk.

 

[Taren Seeker]

Oh, and yes you provoke an AoO for attacking unarmed unless you have the IUS feat or are a monk.

But why would you? It's a melee touch attack, not an unarmed strike. Touch spells do not generate AoO's because it assumes that your opponent is treating the attack with some respect since it's more dangerous than a regular unarmed strike. Why would this be different?

 

[Caliban]

Trip attacks do not generate an attack of opportunity. Instead, your opponent has chance of tripping you back if you fail to trip them.

The designers decided that they didn't want Trip to penalize you twice (by risking both an AoO and a return trip).

 

[Mistwell]

I was always under the impression that ANY weapon could make a trip attack (just as AHY weapon can make a disarm attempt), however only special weapons allow you to drop them to avoid a counter-trip.

Can anyone site a rule that says otherwise?

 

[Caliban]

I was always under the impression that ANY weapon could make a trip attack (just as AHY weapon can make a disarm attempt), however only special weapons allow you to drop them to avoid a counter-trip.

Can anyone site a rule that says otherwise?

I haven't seen that states it explicitly, but I don't really see how you can use a dagger or crossbow to trip someone.

Can you cite a rule that says that any weapon can be used to make a trip attack?

 

[jontherev]

But why would you? It's a melee touch attack, not an unarmed strike. Touch spells do not generate AoO's because it assumes that your opponent is treating the attack with some respect since it's more dangerous than a regular unarmed strike. Why would this be different?

You might be right, and Caliban. However, the concept of provoking AoO's while unarmed stems from the fact that most unarmed combatants are much less of a threat that way, hence the AoO. A cleric with Harm blazing off his hand is definitely more of a threat than Bob the fighter whose ax just got sundered. Anyway, here's the rule under melee attack action: "If the combatant is attacking an armed opponent while unarmed, the combatant provokes an immediate attack of opportunity from the target which is resolved before the combatant's attack. Note that under certain circumstances, a combatant attacking without a weapon is still considered "armed". "

The question is, is trip considered attacking unarmed, if you aren't using a special trip weapon? If yes, then you provoke an AoO whenever you try to trip someone. Whatcha think Caliban?