Trouble with Outsider Depiction

I think the general consensus is that celestials and fiends are created rather than bred. So how do they mate with mortals (creating the various planetouched races/templates)? I think of it like Greek gods. When Zeus wanted to fool around with a mortal woman he turned himself into a swan or bull or something. Ditto Outsiders. Although they have no sexual organs, many have polymorph self to take care of that problem.
 

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It also then follows that "free will" is a false notion, in that it only exists for those creatures who have absolutely no limitations on the actiosn they may perform. Only the truely omnipotent have free will. The rest of us work with pale, restricted versions of the thing.


I disagree entirely with this. When I say free will I mean sentient freedom of choice, as in nothing preventing you from making your own decisions. Obviously having free will doesnt allow you to do things you are physically incapable of. Having freedom of choice doesnt automatically mean being omnipotent and being "free" to do anything. To me it basically means sentience, self awareness, freedom from control, and accountability.


Therefore...

It may then follow for the Outsider - maybe for them, the alignment burden restricts their available actions. The demon cannot perform good acts, any more than I can jump a tall building in a single bound. Will has nothing to do with it.


If thats the case, then they do not have free will. They are forced to be evil no matter what, they cannot choose to do otherwise. And therefore they either are not sentient (which they are) or they are not truly and accountably evil, because they are not choosing their actions.



I reject all of this. And by the same token I reject the idea of fiends as "evil elementals" that are simply born of evil. I dont believe anything comes into being evil, it must be made or choose to become that way. Just like in LOTR, the Balrogs and even Sauron were once good, but make a concious choice to follow the path of evil.


I am currently leaning towards this way of thinking about/handling it.

The higher fiends were once celestial beings who fell from grace and became demons. Since they already had absolute knowledge of Good and rejected it, there decision is final and while I suppose their alignment could change, they cannot become what they were before again.

Lower types of fiends are basically fallen mortals...people who choose evil in life and so become evil personified after death. Some of them may also be other types of life or whatever that were corrupted in some other manner

Any of these types might interbreed with mortals for various reasons.



Most Celestials were created directly by the Creator (or simply sprung from the concept of Good or the good gods in standard D&D). They are capable of choosing evil and thus becoming fiends. They generally do not cross breed with mortals

Some celestials were once mortals or other beings who upon death were given several choices, one of which was to become a celestial being and continue to serve the cause of good. They are also capable of "falling" and may some times beget offspring with earthly beings.


All of the Exemplar outsiders are both a body and a spirit, and killing the body doesnt neccesarily kill the spirit.
 

Free will does not excist.

if your a religeuos man you know this. since God/Allah already knows who will end up in heaven from the beginning of time, till the endtimes. since its predestined, we have no choice in our actions.

If your a social scientist, you know we all are determined by our surroundings.

If your look at it from an excact science viewpoint, we and our actions are the result of chemicl reactions in our bodies, the reactions to stimili are always the same, so we dont have free will, just the moment of the stimulus, determins the current state of beeing, and the reaction, only differs due to momentairy differences.

If you happen to be a "new-Ager" you know that your Dharma cannot be changed since its determined by your Karma.

From a filosofic point of view the possibility of choice means that one always could have made a better choice, thus we are doomed to make the Wrong choices, thus we have no FREEDOM of choice.
 

NimrodvanHall said:
Free will does not excist.

if your a religeuos man you know this. since God/Allah already knows who will end up in heaven from the beginning of time, till the endtimes. since its predestined, we have no choice in our actions.

Double predestination gives you a way out of this though and preserves free will and God knowing it all ahead of time.

If your a social scientist, you know we all are determined by our surroundings.

Genetic influence upon complex behavior. What's that sound? A social scientist crying, just ignore them. ;)

If your look at it from an excact science viewpoint, we and our actions are the result of chemicl reactions in our bodies, the reactions to stimili are always the same, so we dont have free will, just the moment of the stimulus, determins the current state of beeing, and the reaction, only differs due to momentairy differences.

Troubling thought isn't it... unless there does exist true random action in the universe to prevent such a mechanistic and coldly predetermined world from being reality. If there's any type of quantum level basis for consciousness (which is unlikely, we're a bit too warm and wet for that) that gives us a bit of true randomness to allow for free will.
 

1. Outsiders have Free Will however this is mitigated by Knowledge

when Humans choose they do so based on limited knowledge of Consequence and thus, should they make the wrong choice (ie to do evil), they can not be deemed fully responsible (ergo god and/or the universe forgives)

when Outsiders choose they do so with perfect knowledge and thus are incapable of making a wrong choice - if they choose to be evil they are fully responsible for that evil (ergo god and/or the universe do not forgive) and Outsiders stay good/evil respectively

2. The Spirit/Body thing isn't so hard. Matter is energy the Outsider takes the energy of their plane and causes it to manifest in solid form - as a body which when destroyed dissapated back to the home plane sucking the now disembodied spirit along with it. Nowhere does it say outsiders reproduce (rather than spontaneously generate) so thats not even a debatable point

As to breeding with mortals - thats magic.
 

There really are no wrong & right answers here. Here are my thoughts...

On the Nature of Free Will
Consider for a moment that all morality is habit, and those socially acceptable deeply ingrained habits constitue a "charitable and pious woman" or a "good husband." Those habits which are borderline unacceptable are termed obsessive (as in OCD). A Sufi, a Toltec, or another mystic/gnostic would say we're all infected by a parasite. We think we have free will, but what we have is free will in a box. You can take certain actions, but there are actions that you cannot take. There is too much inertia to overcome, and thus you are trapped in your bad habit. It might be obvious like repeating a trauma inflicted on you, like shameful acts of violence. Or it might be subtle like failing to honor a parent for the sacrifices they made for you, or buying and using a product which relies on slave labor and is environmentally toxic. Thus enters spiritual practice - meditation, whirling, chanting, prayer, fasting, vision quests. These practices break apart crystallized habits and increase the size of one's freedom box. And for developed souls, their spiritual practice merges with their every day life so that they are continuously breaking their habits to become more authentic, more free. Eventually, you find true liberation and become the master of your own destiny.

Free Will for Fiends 101
Fiends have developed some very bad habits which were a long time in the making. Do they have free will? Sure, but their box of free will would seem like a tiny cage for a mortal. You eat to excess every day of your life and then you decide to fast one day. Guess what? You're going to have one hell of a ride as your body and mind adapt. It would be much easier if you had been fasting a little bit all along. You think of one side as the enemy all your life - it's been indoctrinated into you, you've killed them and seen them kill your friends - and then a peace treaty is declared. Is it any surprise that if no effort is made to help you come to your own separate peace that you might snap on someone because of their ethnicity? How much harder is it going to be for a fiend?

Re-Education
Like a wicked or crazed man, re-educating a fiend is hard work. Even if they want to seek good, they've got all this inertia of ingrained wicked habits to overcome. They'll need a rock solid, fluid spiritual master with time to devote to reforming the fiend and the fiend will need to unerringly perform its spiritual practice. Day by day its capacity for free will grows. It would be truly a miracle if it attained an average human-sized freedom box.

See this doesnt really sit well with me. I can see a spirit being taking on a solid body, but "solid spirit" doesnt make sense to me.
Maybe this was one of the reasons the fiends fell? For professing physical matter as equal to spiritual matter, or as being essentially the same thing. Perhaps the fiends argued something like: "There is no higher realm than flesh and earth. You say this is my body, but I say it is my spirit. When I have pleasure through sex, wine, drugs, or a breeze in my hair that is my spirit singing. When I perform austerities or deny my impulses then do I offend and deny my spirit."
And then God said: Oh yeah? *SMITE!* :D

The Reproduction of Fiends & Celestials
Reproduction = the act of creation and ensuring a lineage that carries your values. An outsider is moral philosophy made incarnate, thus any act of physical creation is equated to an act of philosophical creation - a spin-off or a more refined concept, perhaps even a heresy unallowed by the former philosophy. Why breed with a mortal? Because the offspring's free will box will be vastly greater, thereby producing the possibility for a better future (for celestials), or an even greater fall (for fiends).

If they cant breed with one another, how are there so many of them? The problem from my perspective remains the same tho: the concept of concious beings that are "born" evil.
Well, the Catholic Church espouses the concept of original sin. While babies are not evil, they are certainly sinful according to a Catholic. And pretty much everyone agrees that babies are conscious during their birth (just ask anyone who has been rebirthed or who works as a midwife or doula). What if the child is born with a subtle brain damage that prevents him from feeling the impact his actions have on others; this would be very similar to forms of autism or asperger's. Now if the parents raise him to do good and work with his condition he can learn to feel responsibility, appropriate guilt, compassion, and mercy. If his parents are fiends however, they'll teach him to be a mean SOB. Thus a dysfunction of the brain + bad training = what we call "evil."

But, are outsiders conscious?
It seems like a silly question. Of course they are. They can talk, make deals, and lament their fate - of course they're conscious! If you look deeper: Let's define consciousness as having awareness of one's environment and one's own existence, sensations, and thoughts. (one definition from American Heritage).

* Outsiders certainly seem to have awareness of their environment, right? When a fiend sees a murder what do they see? When a celestial enters hell or a place tainted with many evils what do they see? Perhaps they have limited awareness or are hyper-aware.

* Are outsiders aware of their individual existence? That seems certain for the fiends; it's almost a prerequisite of falling. For some celestials, especially those closest to God, I'd imagine the situation gets fuzzier.

* Is an outsider aware of her sensations? As outsiders are philosophies made manifest, and they do have physical bodies then they at least have some level of sensation. It is likely that fiends may be shielded from the emotional impact of some of the atrocities they commit. Perhaps even certain celestials too (from the evils of the fiends that is).

* And is an outsider aware of her thoughts? I'll leave this one to the scholars...

A Fairy Steals a Fiendish Babe
So what if a fiend's child is stolen and raised with a different set of morals? What if the babe is trained by someone who is considerate, loving, and deeply passionate? The babe is raised deeply in touch with its feelings. When the young boy slights someone he feels pangs of guilt and wishes to reconcile. When he helps another he feels deep pride. He has developed a moral compass which his fiendish parents lack, and he can now feel good from bad. A fiend on the other hand, only intellectually understands good from bad (and has a very sharp understanding too).

Well, the only trouble I have with the fiends as former petioners idea is it doesnt work very well in a cosmology where evil mortals are supposed to suffer eternal punishment. Being granted all that power is more like a reward.
Unless it's more like possession and you're watching yourself committing all these hideous deeds and there's nothing you can do to stop it. That would be pretty hellish. Sure you can toss fireballs and shrug off swords, but you can't rescue the nuns or horses from a burning convent, and you've got to watch as you set up people you once called friends to turn against each other. I'd imagine that the true psychopaths wouldn't be turned into fiends, at least not until they were trained to feel guilt...

The moral of the story? Be good. Smite fiends. :)
 

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