Trouble with Short Rest and Healing Word

[Old Gumphrey]

Yeah...fighting a solo with no dailies is not only totally lame and boring, it's also dangerous and is completely independent of how high your surges are healing you for. Also, most groups don't consider more combats in a day "more fun". The baseline is already what, five? This pushes it up to seven? A lot of groups don't even play long enough to incorporate seven combat encounters into an entire gaming session.

 

[keterys]

So I guess the take-home message is, all healing surges get extra healing with a leader in the group, or else you're wrong/an idiot/etc.? Cool.

No, but you're wrong about the effect it has and you're most likely wrong about why you want to change it otherwise.

Which is a shame, since it's been clearly explained in the thread multiple times.

That said, you could make healing words only get the bonus outside combat and perhaps get the effect you're looking for. Less powerful party in combat, still able to fight multiple encounters.

Totally agree that having less powers when you get to the solo is not desirable, though

 

[Nail]

I'll say it again: my level 7 party is nearly death-proof. They can handle several encounters per day at higher encounter levels. It's not a big deal for my PCs to smack down a solo that's 4 levels their senior. They don't even need this trick to constantly win at D&D.

Riiiiight.

Your players are "death-proof" and are "winning D&D"?

If you don't mind me saying so, this might be yer problem, rather than out-of-combat HW use. There are ways of dealing with "death-proof" PCs that are both fun and challenging. Perhaps you could concider some DM strategies for that, rather than sweating over the small stuff.

 

[Nail]

A lot of groups don't even play long enough to incorporate seven combat encounters into an entire gaming session.

Are you aware of the assumption you're making here? Who says one adventuring day can't stretch over several gaming sessions? My groups do this all the time!

Think of your gaming session as an episode of "24". The day's not over when the session is over.

 

[Old Gumphrey]

I didn't say it can't be done. We don't really like doing it, I hate leaving loose ends on the table week to week. We almost always come to a decent stopping point, even if the session runs over time (in this case "decent stopping point" means "somewhere other than out in the woods with 4 encounters to go").

I don't really need DM strategies to deal with the party. I've just accepted the fact that 4e is flat out easier; it's easier to DM, easier to teach, easier to learn, easier to play, and easier to succeed at. It's also a hell of a lot more fun than we've had in ages. I'm a seasoned DM, a lot of my encounters border on cheating; in 3e I was killing players absolutely left and right. We actually instituted a "3 round rule" for healing after you die, because we found that constant dead-raising was just...lame. Interestingly, 4e mimics this with its death save mechanic.

No, but you're wrong about the effect it has and you're most likely wrong about why you want to change it otherwise.

No, I'm not wrong about the effect it has. The effect it has is doubling or tripling every single surge value in the game, forever. I don't like it, my players don't like it, so we don't do it. It's something you're going to have to accept.

And then you go on to say that I'm "most likely wrong" about why I want to change a core rule? That is to say, that my opinion is not something you disagree with, but is an actual false statement? I think I may be finished speaking with you. =)

 

[MrBeens]

I might have missed it, but did the OP ever reply to this statement -

"During their first adventure the party never slept between levels 1 and 2 and only rested once between levels 2 and 3. Is this what was intended?"

A few people have pointed out that there is something going wrong here - I'm just curious to know what

 

[Nail]

I don't really need DM strategies to deal with the party. I've just accepted the fact that 4e is flat out easier; it's easier to DM, easier to teach, easier to learn, easier to play, and easier to succeed at. It's also a hell of a lot more fun than we've had in ages.

Understood!

 

[keterys]

No, I'm not wrong about the effect it has. The effect it has is doubling or tripling every single surge value in the game, forever.

And, outside of combat (which is the discussion we're having), gameplay is changed in what way by that?

I don't like it, my players don't like it

Why don't you like it? For example, it's a) unbalanced b) stupid to have multiple rests c) has a negative effect on some other power or character, combinations thereof, etc.

I personally think it's stupid to have multiple short rests and to bookkeep all of that process, for example. So I dislike taking multiple short rests to use more healing words for that reason.

And then you go on to say that I'm "most likely wrong" about why I want to change a core rule? That is to say, that my opinion is not something you disagree with, but is an actual false statement? I think I may be finished speaking with you. =)

If that's the way you need to go then go for it, but I think you are genuinely confused about the actual cause and effect here or perhaps using justifications instead of the actual reason. I may be mistaken, but in studying your words that is the verdict I found most likely.

That is to say, the characters are going to rest if they're out of surges and healing word outside of combat _saves surges_ but has no other effect. In combat, it's very powerful for saving actions and healing resources (which are typically quite limited) and has a huge effect on making parties more resilient. So, if your justification is that it's bad because it makes your party more resilient or death proof, and your target is not allowing it to be used out of combat, then you are mistaken.

If you object to it being used out of combat because multiple rests are bad, I'd agree, but you could solve that in other ways. If you object that it's overpowered to use out of combat, I think you're once again mistaken unless there is some vital competition for number of surges used going on. If you think that it causes pacing problems where they can handle too many encounters in one day while exhausting dailies earlier so combats suffer due to lack of diverse resources, then that could be a valid complaint for your game. I think it's a little weak, but totally could be (and not what I've seen be your reason in this thread).

If you're objecting because healing more in that way is badwrongfun for your group, then I'd urge you to make sure you weren't projecting your own feelings on your players (which can happen sometimes, but often players prefer not to be reduced in power from core without good reason), and otherwise - whatever, your fun is your fun. Some people stick with 1-2-1-2 diagonals and others don't allow eladrin in their games. D&D is rife with house rules and restrictions.

It's just not because the bonus to out of combat healing is making them too powerful in combat

 

[Skyscraper]

Right. Using unlimited Healing Word outside of battle is in the rules. (5 minutes between each use.)

So, if you want to house-rule against using Healing Word outside of combat, it's your game, go ahead. You'll shorten a day's work for your PCs who will need to spend more healing surges to regain a same number of hit points. It will not change significantly any single encounter, they'll still enter the encounter with full hit points and two Healing Words. However, they'll have to call it quits after 3 combat encounters instead of 4. Don't think they'll go on adventuring when they're out of healing surges. And 99% of DMs will not force PCs to continue adventuring without any healing left, at least in most cases.

Side note: it could be argued that they'll be *stronger* without unlimited Healing Words outside of battle. Think about it this way: if they rest more often, say after 3 combat encounters instead of four, they get to use their dailies once every 3 combat encounters instead of once every four. That's 25% more daily power usage.

Anyway, in any case it is really a trivial matter that will not change any given encounter signicantly, i repeat: the only real consequence is shortening a day's work for the PCs.

Sky