Troubleshoot my monsters

[Rechan]

I whipped up these monsters in a day for a game, but due to scheduling, they didn't see use. So I would like to get them ironed out before next session. I don't care if a +1 is off here or there, but I'm more concerned about how interesting the monsters are, and issues of too powerful/not powerful enough.

My party consists of 6 1st level PCs. There are two strikers in the group (Barbarian, Assassin) so I'm not worried about HP issues. There's a Shaman, and a hybrid invoker|Cleric, so healing is also handled. The lone defender is a Paladin.

The monsters consist of hobgoblins who were frozen in a giant block of ice, before thawed out by a malignant primal force of winter. So they're not really undead, but more like Ice Hobgoblins.

All monsters have speed 5 and Resist Cold 5. I decided to not use Hogoblin racial powers, because very few of the players' powers use Save Ends effects, and of those that do, I'd hate to immediately stomp it.



Herald of Winter 2nd level Solo Controller
Init: +3
Hp: 100 Bloodied: 50
(Not enough HP? I don't want GRIND, but...)
AC: 18 Fort: 17 Ref: 14 Will: 16

Numbing Strike (Standard, At Will)
+7 vs. AC; 1d10+3 damage. Target is pushed 2, takes a -2 to attacks until end of Herald's next turn.

Ice Trap (Standard, Melee)
+7 vs. AC; 1d10+3 damage. Target is immobilized, adjacent enemies take 1d6+3 cold damage.

Wrath of Winter (Standard, At Will)
Herald of Winter makes two basic attacks.

Rime Pulse (Standard, Recharge 5, 6) Close Burst 2
+6 vs. Ref; 2d6+3 cold damage. Target is pushed 2 and knocked prone.
(Too powerful? Or too much damage?)

Wave of Ice (Standard, Recharge 6) Close Blast 3
+6 vs. 2d6+3, target is pushed 2 and takes -2 to AC/REf until end of Herald's next turn.

Freeze Breath (Immediate Reaction, when damaged by ranged attack, recharge 5, 6) Close Burst 5
+6 vs. Fort; 1d6+3 cold damage, target takes ongoing 5 cold damage (save ends)

Crimson Caltrops (When Bloodied)
Squares adjacent to the Herald are difficult terrain. Entering a square causes 5 points of damage.


Gaze of Winter 2nd level Elite Controller
Init: +3
Hp: 76 Bloodied: 38
AC: 18 Fort: 16 Ref: 14 Will: 17

Rod of Furious Ice (Standard, At Will)
+7 vs. AC; 1d6+3 damage, and target takes ongoing 5 cold damage (save ends)

Chilling Stare (Standard, AW) Range 10
+6 vs. Fort; 1d10+3 cold damage, target is slowed (save ends). First failed save: Target is immobilized (save ends).

Evil Eye: (Minor, AW) Clsoe Burst 10
+6 vs. Will; 1d6+3 necrotic damage, and target receives -2 to all defenses until end of Gaze's next turn.

Frigid Grasp (Standard, E) Range 10
+6 vs. Will; 1d10+3 cold damage. Target is slid 5 squares to ally; ally can make a basic attack with a +2.

Breath of Winter's Night (Standard, Recharges when Bloodied) Close Blast 3
+6 vs. Ref; 2d6+3 cold damage, and target is slid 3.
(Too much damage?)



Frosthammer Level 2 Brute
Init: +3
Chilling Aura: Aura 2. Enemies that enter/start their turn take 3 cold damage.
Hp: 47 Bloodied: 23
AC: 14 Fort: 16 Ref: 14 Will: 14

Frozen Flail
+5 vs. AC; 1d10+3 damage. Target is immobilized until end of Frosthammer's next turn.

Pulse of Cold (Immediate Reaction, when Bloodied, and killed) Close Burst 1
+3 vs. Fort; 2d4+2 cold damage.

Ice Reaper: +5 damage to Immobilized and Slowed targets.

(I really like Chillborn zombies, but they are too high level, and I prefer them to bebrutes. However, these guys aren't very interesting aside from their basic attack and their aura. I am not satisfied with the Pulse; I'd like a neater ability for them.)



Archer Level 3 Artillery
Init: +6
HP: 38 Bloodied: 16
AC: 16 Fort: 13 Ref: 15 Will: 13

Longbow (S, AW)
+8 vs. AC; 1d10+3

Frostfell Arrow
+8 vs. AC; 1d10+3. Until end of next turn, a burst 1 zone is created centered on the target. Any creature that ends its turn within the zone takes 3 cold damage.


Heartfreezing Arrow (Standard, E)
+8 vs. AC; 1d10+3+1d6 cold damage. Target is slowed, takes -2 to all defenses until Archer's next turn.

 

[Mentat55]

So the Herald of Winter is the primal spirit, and the rest are the ice hobgoblins?

A few thoughts:
1. I like the imagery of the Crimson Caltrops power
2. The biggest source of grind here are the ACs on the Solo and Elite. I'd go with normal Solo HP, but don't do the +2 to multiple defenses, and instead stick with the MM2/DMG2 approach of level appropriate defenses (in this case, AC 16 for level 2 controllers).
3. Be careful with higher level artillery -- they have good attack bonuses and damage, and could put the hurt on a lower level party quickly, depending on numbers and positioning.
4. It might be cool to include an interesting hazard, in place of one of the monsters, or in addition to.

 

[Rechan]

So the Herald of Winter is the primal spirit, and the rest are the ice hobgoblins?

The Herald of Winter is a hobgoblin with a glowy gem in his chest. He's sort of like a Four Horseman figure - the Winter Everlasting is like Ragnorak, and his job is to build an army in preparation for it (hence why the Gazer can ressurrect the dead). He has woken prematurely (the spirit of the Northern Wind and the Prince of Frost joined forces to wake him up).

The glowy gem is important, as the PCs need to remove it from his chest when he gets bloodied, otherwise he's not going to take any damage. And when he dies, the gem explodes, giving them information and imbuing some with powers (ala Divine Boon) or enchanting their equipment.

2. The biggest source of grind here are the ACs on the Solo and Elite. I'd go with normal Solo HP, but don't do the +2 to multiple defenses, and instead stick with the MM2/DMG2 approach of level appropriate defenses (in this case, AC 16 for level 2 controllers).

So noted.

3. Be careful with higher level artillery -- they have good attack bonuses and damage, and could put the hurt on a lower level party quickly, depending on numbers and positioning.

The artillery in one encounter will be on a ledge the PCs have to run up some iced over stairs (and get past two minions) to engage in. In the last encounter, they're simply behind the Herald of Winter, in a small room - so they can't really hide.

4. It might be cool to include an interesting hazard, in place of one of the monsters, or in addition to.

In on encounter, the PCs are in the bottom of a tower that was once frozen completely solid. The ice has melted for the most part, but is rather thick in places. There are specific squares that the PCs could attack ice on the ceiling to drop huge blocks on the enemies, if they move the enemy into position.

As far as the SOLO battle, I'd like to make the battle ITSELF more interesting, too. It's at the top of a tower. I was thinking that maybe some stones in the floor fall out, creating hazards (although a 40 foot drop is harsh!). There's also a ballista in the room, which I anticipate a PC will use to shoot the Herald in the face.

 

[jester_gl]

Here are my 2 cents on these icy threat.

As you already noted, the AC (and probably other defenses too) on the elite and the solo are 2 too high. Particularly when combined with the bunch of -2 to attack your gonna be distributing all around.

On the Herald of winter, I would probably lower his damage. He kinda stand on brute damage, with all the effect of a controller attached to it. Also, I would consider changing his pushback to a knock prone, simply because all the striker and defender in your group are melee. 2 pushback per turn, in addition to the spike effect while bloodied...I simply see too much damage there. Maybe leave the pushback on the rimepulse, but remove it from the at-will. 100 hp is a little low for a solo, especially if the assassin unleash 4 shroud on him as soon as he gets bloodied.

For the Gaze of winter, I would put a restriction on his Evil Eye power. Once per turn max, and removing the damage part of it. Otherwise he could just do that 3 times per round and that might be too much. Also, I think he does too much damage for a controller monster, he seem a lot more like an artillery like this. Lower his damage a little, the player will be feeling the effect anyway, no sense in killing them before they get to cry. d6 instead of d10, and single dice on his breath, maybe no recharge on the breath but bigger effect (immobilized, at least slow). Push 3 + slow might be fun.

For your frosthammer, I would change the immobilized to slowed. They still get the bonus damage, and they will feel more like brute than soldier. I would also reduce the aura to 1, and 2 damage...just like krutick. For your pulse of cold, it feels a lot like the boneshard skeleton. Maybe they could become slowed when bloodied, to give some tactical choice to your players (beat a little on the brute to be able to manage them better).

Your artillery are ok, but keep in mind that they almost always hit level 1 character, and that 2 hit can be death. The burst they create should do the same damage as the aura from the brute, and they should not stack with each other (how cold can it get). -2 to all defense could be -2 AC/Ref just like the herald, but this is a minor thing.

Also, a 40 foot fall is not just brutal, it's lethal. Especially with the number of push effect your monsters have. Even if the damage don't kill them, they won't be back before the end of the fight.

I would put a thawing spring somewhere that could revitalize them before the end fight (at least give them back some surge, but there is little water thawed yet so not reusable), and plenty of healing potion on the way. Also maybe 1 item that gives resist 5 to cold to one of them, especially the paladin. Boots of the North don't exist anymore, but I would consider something like that (resist cold, resist slippery terrain).

Feel free to ignore me as much as you like, but I would like some feedback here after the game happened.

 

[Rechan]

I was following Asmor's directions about giving +2 to defenses for Elites/Solos, but I'll make the adjustments, thanks.

On the Herald of winter, I would probably lower his damage. He kinda stand on brute damage, with all the effect of a controller attached to it. Also, I would consider changing his pushback to a knock prone, simply because all the striker and defender in your group are melee. 2 pushback per turn, in addition to the spike effect while bloodied...I simply see too much damage there. Maybe leave the pushback on the rimepulse, but remove it from the at-will. 100 hp is a little low for a solo, especially if the assassin unleash 4 shroud on him as soon as he gets bloodied.

As far as his damage is concerned: should I reduce the recharge powers' damage from 2d6 to 1d10, or - where is the large damage output coming from?

Good point about the pushing effects. I anticipated some of that wickedness from his caltrops - but limiting it to his Recharge powers seems fair. Since he'll likely be Shifting away, that will force people to come into contact with the difficult terrain on some rounds (unless the fighter marks him, and makes him stay put or smack him).

So noted about the HP.

For the Gaze of winter, I would put a restriction on his Evil Eye power. Once per turn max, and removing the damage part of it. Otherwise he could just do that 3 times per round and that might be too much.

Yeah, I plan on only using it once per turn anyways, but it's good to codify that. I wanted to have that power do necrotic damage simply because I have two PCs who have necrotic resistance.

Also, I think he does too much damage for a controller monster, he seem a lot more like an artillery like this. Lower his damage a little, the player will be feeling the effect anyway, no sense in killing them before they get to cry. d6 instead of d10, and single dice on his breath, maybe no recharge on the breath but bigger effect (immobilized, at least slow). Push 3 + slow might be fun.

I was using the High regular damage output for his Encounter powers (since I thought that's what you do for monsters). But yeah, I do think that the Breath of Night is harsh.

For the record, I only will be using the Gaze once, and he will only be paired with two Frosthammers and minions; no archers, no Solo.

For your frosthammer, I would change the immobilized to slowed. They still get the bonus damage, and they will feel more like brute than soldier. I would also reduce the aura to 1, and 2 damage...just like krutick. For your pulse of cold, it feels a lot like the boneshard skeleton. Maybe they could become slowed when bloodied, to give some tactical choice to your players (beat a little on the brute to be able to manage them better).

That's a good idea, but I'm also tempted to increase the damage of their aura when they become slowed. Maybe increase size and damage. To make them more Interesting when they get bloodied. Also adds a little bit of complexity to them (We can SLOW them but then they're gunna hurt us).

Your artillery are ok, but keep in mind that they almost always hit level 1 character, and that 2 hit can be death. The burst they create should do the same damage as the aura from the brute, and they should not stack with each other (how cold can it get). -2 to all defense could be -2 AC/Ref just like the herald, but this is a minor thing.

Well their attacks are on par with artillery of 2nd level. If I drop them down to level 1, they're going to die fast, and this is a 6 man crew.

Also, a 40 foot fall is not just brutal, it's lethal. Especially with the number of push effect your monsters have. Even if the damage don't kill them, they won't be back before the end of the fight.

The problem is that I'm limited by the environment - they are just going into a tower, and so I have to work within the parameters. In retrospect, I think the fall would be 30 feet. But 15 feet down, there is a 2x10 ledge on one side, where the blocks could fall out for instance. That way a fall wouldn't be lethal, and add some traction. It also wouldn't be lethal for the Herald if he tumbled.

Additional note: The Pally has Touch of Virtue, not Lay on Hands. So that should relieve some of the imobilization woes, but certainly exascerbates the healing. But, there's an Invoker|Cleric (so one Healing Word per encounter), plus the protector Shaman.

 

[jester_gl]

One thing you could do about the Herald of Winter would be to enable the PC to do something to block his recharge. He has 4 recharge power (3 standard and 1 interrupt) so if the PC could prevent his recharge with something (fire damage or whatever) then you could probably leave him as is damage wise. I would still probably lower his at-will to 1d8 (staff), because he can do 2 of them in the same round.

For the brute, I would be tempted to do the opposite. Start large with aura that does 4 damage, then become medium size when bloodied with aura that does 2 damage and slowed. With this they become a higher priority for the PCs, keeping your other creature safer for a little while longer.

Also, is the herald Large or Medium. If hes medium, he will get surrounded fast, then he might have problem shifting away. On the other hand, if he's large, he would have an harder time shifting away from player.

For the eye, I would keep the damage to cold. Better be consistent, unless he's something like the ghost of a warlock

Little aside, the damage output you chose are for single target ability.

For attacks against multiple targets, the melee attacks of artillery monsters, and controller attacks that also include significant control functions, use the low normal damage column. DMG p184.

Even if those ability are on recharge, they do contain controller effect AND multiple targets.

Good luck with this. It does seem like a cool adventure.​

 

[Rechan]

One thing you could do about the Herald of Winter would be to enable the PC to do something to block his recharge. He has 4 recharge power (3 standard and 1 interrupt) so if the PC could prevent his recharge with something (fire damage or whatever) then you could probably leave him as is damage wise. I would still probably lower his at-will to 1d8 (staff), because he can do 2 of them in the same round.

I could change it to a longsword instead. Hrm.

For the brute, I would be tempted to do the opposite. Start large with aura that does 4 damage, then become medium size when bloodied with aura that does 2 damage and slowed. With this they become a higher priority for the PCs, keeping your other creature safer for a little while longer.

I don't see a reason why they would be large, period. They are hobgoblins, after all. If you mean their AURA being large, sure.

Also, is the herald Large or Medium. If hes medium, he will get surrounded fast, then he might have problem shifting away.

I don't think he'll be surrounded by all six chars. Some are ranged. Even with the spirit. He's Medium.

Little aside, the damage output you chose are for single target ability.

Oh. Thanks for pointing that out.[/quote]

 

[Mesh Hong]

Sorry this will be a really quick response to a quick read, if I get more time later I will have another look.

If my replies seem a little blunt it is because of time issues, not attitude!

Are all these creatures meant to be in 1 encounter for 6 level 1 characters?

Herald of Winter 2nd level Solo Controller
Init: +3
Hp: 100 Bloodied: 50
(Not enough HP? I don't want GRIND, but...)
AC: 18 Fort: 17 Ref: 14 Will: 16

Numbing Strike (Standard, At Will)
+7 vs. AC; 1d10+3 damage. Target is pushed 2, takes a -2 to attacks until end of Herald's next turn.

Ice Trap (Standard, Melee)
+7 vs. AC; 1d10+3 damage. Target is immobilized, adjacent enemies take 1d6+3 cold damage.

Wrath of Winter (Standard, At Will)
Herald of Winter makes two basic attacks.

Rime Pulse (Standard, Recharge 5, 6) Close Burst 2
+6 vs. Ref; 2d6+3 cold damage. Target is pushed 2 and knocked prone.
(Too powerful? Or too much damage?)

Wave of Ice (Standard, Recharge 6) Close Blast 3
+6 vs. 2d6+3, target is pushed 2 and takes -2 to AC/REf until end of Herald's next turn.

Freeze Breath (Immediate Reaction, when damaged by ranged attack, recharge 5, 6) Close Burst 5
+6 vs. Fort; 1d6+3 cold damage, target takes ongoing 5 cold damage (save ends)

Crimson Caltrops (When Bloodied)
Squares adjacent to the Herald are difficult terrain. Entering a square causes 5 points of damage.

1: Wave of Ice - I would change to an encounter power and lower damage. Probably 1d8+3 cold damage.

2: Freeze Breath - I would redesign this power, close blast 5 as a reaction for a low level solo seems like massive overkill to me, and too indiscriminate.

3: Crimson Caltrops - I like the power, but I think its too much damage, 2 would probably be better than 5.

Gaze of Winter 2nd level Elite Controller
Init: +3
Hp: 76 Bloodied: 38
AC: 18 Fort: 16 Ref: 14 Will: 17

Rod of Furious Ice (Standard, At Will)
+7 vs. AC; 1d6+3 damage, and target takes ongoing 5 cold damage (save ends)

Chilling Stare (Standard, AW) Range 10
+6 vs. Fort; 1d10+3 cold damage, target is slowed (save ends). First failed save: Target is immobilized (save ends).

Evil Eye: (Minor, AW) Clsoe Burst 10
+6 vs. Will; 1d6+3 necrotic damage, and target receives -2 to all defenses until end of Gaze's next turn.

Frigid Grasp (Standard, E) Range 10
+6 vs. Will; 1d10+3 cold damage. Target is slid 5 squares to ally; ally can make a basic attack with a +2.

Breath of Winter's Night (Standard, Recharges when Bloodied) Close Blast 3
+6 vs. Ref; 2d6+3 cold damage, and target is slid 3.
(Too much damage?)

1: Rod of Furious Ice - 5 ongoing damage is a lot for a level 1 character.

2: Evil Eye - Burst 10 effect would normally be reserved for paragon tier, but there is nothing inherently wrong with it - I suppose.

3: Frigid Grasp - is unclear, needs explain better.

4: Breath of Winters Night - Is probably fine.

Frosthammer Level 2 Brute
Init: +3
Chilling Aura: Aura 2. Enemies that enter/start their turn take 3 cold damage.
Hp: 47 Bloodied: 23
AC: 14 Fort: 16 Ref: 14 Will: 14

Frozen Flail
+5 vs. AC; 1d10+3 damage. Target is immobilized until end of Frosthammer's next turn.

Pulse of Cold (Immediate Reaction, when Bloodied, and killed) Close Burst 1
+3 vs. Fort; 2d4+2 cold damage.

Ice Reaper: +5 damage to Immobilized and Slowed targets.

(I really like Chillborn zombies, but they are too high level, and I prefer them to bebrutes. However, these guys aren't very interesting aside from their basic attack and their aura. I am not satisfied with the Pulse; I'd like a neater ability for them.)

1: Chilling Aura - I would drop this to aura 1

2: Ice Reaper - this seems dangerous. I would make this just apply to Frozen Flail attacks, as it is written it could actually be added to teh aura damage!

Archer Level 3 Artillery
Init: +6
HP: 38 Bloodied: 16
AC: 16 Fort: 13 Ref: 15 Will: 13

Longbow (S, AW)
+8 vs. AC; 1d10+3

Frostfell Arrow
+8 vs. AC; 1d10+3. Until end of next turn, a burst 1 zone is created centered on the target. Any creature that ends its turn within the zone takes 3 cold damage.


Heartfreezing Arrow (Standard, E)
+8 vs. AC; 1d10+3+1d6 cold damage. Target is slowed, takes -2 to all defenses until Archer's next turn.

1: Frostfell Arrow - I am assuming this is an encounter power?

2: Heartfreezing Arrow - seems like too much damage from a standard creature single attack, if you had a couple of these guys you would have a massive alpha strike. If you only have one of them its not as bad.

General

All these creatures seem to have the theme of lowering defences and immobilising. This might not be an ideal approach against level 1 PCs, especially if this is the players first look at 4e.

 

[Rechan]

Sorry this will be a really quick response to a quick read, if I get more time later I will have another look.

Thanks! I look forward to your more indepth responses!

Are all these creatures meant to be in 1 encounter for 6 level 1 characters?

3 encounters.

Encounter 1:
2 Frosthammers
1 Gaze of Winter
Buncha zombie minions.

Encounter 2:
1 Frosthammer
2 Archers
1 Hobgoblin Subcommander (level 3 soldier - should I level him down to 2?)
4 Hobgoblin Grunts (2nd level minions)

Encounter 3:
Herald of Winter
2 Archers
3 Hogboblin Grunts (lvl 2 minions)

2: Freeze Breath - I would redesign this power, close blast 5 as a reaction for a low level solo seems like massive overkill to me, and too indiscriminate.

No no no. The power is a Close Burst 5 so that he can get it off without taking an OA - it can only target 1 character. Sorry I wasn't clear. Should I also reduce that to Ongoing 2?

3: Crimson Caltrops - I like the power, but I think its too much damage, 2 would probably be better than 5.

Good point.

1: Rod of Furious Ice - 5 ongoing damage is a lot for a level 1 character.

I keep thinking that level 1 PCs are fairly hearty. And always thought Ongoing 2 was lame. But I'll give it a shot.

2: Evil Eye - Burst 10 effect would normally be reserved for paragon tier, but there is nothing inherently wrong with it - I suppose.

Burst 5 is better? It can only target one person, and is only usable 1/round.

3: Frigid Grasp - is unclear, needs explain better.

It's basically the Bard encounter power 'Blunder'. You attack, you move the target next to one of your allies, and the ally gets a basic attack against the target.

1: Chilling Aura - I would drop this to aura 1

Aura 1, but should I stick with the 3 damage, or go for 2?

2: Ice Reaper - this seems dangerous. I would make this just apply to Frozen Flail attacks, as it is written it could actually be added to teh aura damage!

I never thought of that. I don't think that Ice Reaper adds to the aura damage for Chillborn zombies (but I could be wrong!).

1: Frostfell Arrow - I am assuming this is an encounter power?
2: Heartfreezing Arrow - seems like too much damage from a standard creature single attack, if you had a couple of these guys you would have a massive alpha strike. If you only have one of them its not as bad.

I took both powers from the Seeker PC class. The Frostfell arrow is an At-Will of the Seeker (Thorn Cloud I think) and Heartfreezing Arrow is a 1st level Encounter, Spider Spirit. Are PC powers too harsh to give monsters?

OOPS. I noticed a mistake in my notes. The Archers are 2nd level artillery, not 3rd. They have 2nd level artillery stats, but just letting you know I'm not throwing 3rd level monsters at the PCs.

 

[jester_gl]

Hello, it's me again.

On Template: Each of these templates is intended for use by itself, making a monster into an elite opponent. (DMG p.175)​

Basically you just applied a class template (seeker) to a basic artillery monster. Even if I think the 1d10+1d6+3 once per encounter is ok, even if it is brutal (see goblin sharpshooter), I would drop the added controller effect from it. You could also simply reskin the goblin sharpshooter for this role, replacing the combat advantage damage bonus with cold damage once per encounter.

Breath of winter night: Bonus should be lowered to +4 from +6 because it targets multiple character.

And for your three encounter, I think the first and third are ok, the third one being the final one so should be a little tougher than the rest. The second one though is the toughest. Removing one archer and lowering the commander to a level 2 soldier should do it.

Also, why is there no level 1 monster in this level 1 dungeon? You could easily lower the minion to level 1, so the PC actually feel superior to something in there.

And what is your 6th player? A controller I guess, but is it a wizard or an invoker?