D&D 5E (2014) True Polymorph

[Balfore]

Says you can turn an object into a creature.
Of the object is a Clone duplicate and the creature is a 20th level Wizard, does the new creature gain the spell abilities? 

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[MarkB]

A 20th-level wizard likely has a challenge rating higher than 9.

That aside, the spell description is maddeningly nonspecific about how precise you can be about "creature". Can you specify "nth-level wizard", or simply "human"?

 

[Fanaelialae]

Says you can turn an object into a creature.
Of the object is a Clone duplicate and the creature is a 20th level Wizard, does the new creature gain the spell abilities? 

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For starters, the object you use doesn't really matter. You'll get the same results whether you polymorph an inactive clone or a stone. Since the CR limit for an object is 9, and a 20th level character is above CR 9 (based on the Archmage NPC in the MM), it won't work.

Secondly, it's unclear whether you can duplicate a particular creature using True Polymorph, so that would be the DM's call. In other words, while you could transform the 20th level fighter into an Adult Red Dragon, it's less clear whether you can transform him in Balphorzeon, a particular adult red dragon that you met the other day.

Personally, I would recommend against allowing polymorph to duplicate an individual, since then you could arguably just polymorph a party member into the BBEG (or one of his trusted advisors if the BBEG's CR is too high) and have the party member tell you everything they know (the polymorphed individual retains their own mind, therefore they ought to be cooperative).

Additionally, you enter into an abusive situation where a wizard can true poly himself into himself with full spell slots, and wait for the poly to be permanent. Then, when he's running low on spells, he casts dispel magic on himself to recover all of his spell slots. If he runs through most of his spell slots again, he can just poly into a version of himself with full spell slots. That's almost certainly not RAI.

If you can't duplicate an individual, then duplicating knowledge possessed by an individual is also arguably not possible. Therefore, while you can poly someone into a human, you can't poly them into a human wizard or a human fighter.

Like I said, it's up to your DM, but I wouldn't allow it IMC. Even when considering it's only available from levels 17+, it's too easy to abuse.

 

[Balfore]

Alrighty. ..
Then can you True Polymorph a Simulacrum that is a copy of a 20th level Wizard into a comparable creature?
A Simulacrum is both a creature and illusion.

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[MarkB]

Alrighty. ..
Then can you True Polymorph a Simulacrum that is a copy of a 20th level Wizard into a comparable creature?
A Simulacrum is both a creature and illusion.

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Heh. Depending, again, upon how specific your DM lets you be about defining the target creature, and of course depending upon whether you have the required samples available for the Simulacrum, that might actually work.

Whether the creature would have any spells or spell slots available when created would be debatable, and it would need to obtain a spell book.

So yeah, if your DM allows polymorphing into specific classed individuals, your 20th-level wizard might be able to clone himself once per day during downtime at a cost of 1500 gp.

 

[Balfore]

Heh. Depending, again, upon how specific your DM lets you be about defining the target creature, and of course depending upon whether you have the required samples available for the Simulacrum, that might actually work.

Whether the creature would have any spells or spell slots available when created would be debatable, and it would need to obtain a spell book.

So yeah, if your DM allows polymorphing into specific classed individuals, your 20th-level wizard might be able to clone himself once per day during downtime at a cost of 1500 gp.

Yup, that's what the other Simulacrum are for. They cast Wish for money, and cast Simulacrum on the original Wizard.
Then, since they get to keep their memories and personality, they cast True Polymorph on a copy, then you have an army of evil wizards.

I'm the DM, and looking for something as close to the rules as possible. (I know I don't need to, just looking for 'loopholes')
[emoji2]

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[MarkB]

A couple of wrinkles:

First, it's not clear that the True Polymorph would get around the clause of Simulacrum that a currently-active duplicate is destroyed if you re-cast the spell. It's not in the same form it was when conjured into existence, but it is still active.

Second, it's not clear whether the duplicate would continue to be friendly to the caster and obey his commands.

I'd tend to say you can have it one way or the other, but not both. If the simulacrum's obedience carries over into the clone, then it still counts as a simulacrum for purposes of the "only one simulacrum at a time" clause. If that clause is voided by the True Polymorph, then so is the obedience.

So the question is, does the evil overlord trust himself enough to have dozens of copies of himself running loose?

 

[Gardens & Goblins]

So the question is, does the evil overlord trust himself enough to have dozens of copies of himself running loose?

Aye. If the power-hungry spellcaster is willing to such lengths, who's to say their copy won't do the same. It's one thing to copy a stat block, another to copy a personality, ego, ambition, cunning and all.

And who knows the evil overlord's weaknesses better than themselves?

Dangerous stuff...

 

[Balfore]

A couple of wrinkles:

First, it's not clear that the True Polymorph would get around the clause of Simulacrum that a currently-active duplicate is destroyed if you re-cast the spell. It's not in the same form it was when conjured into existence, but it is still active.

Second, it's not clear whether the duplicate would continue to be friendly to the caster and obey his commands.

I'd tend to say you can have it one way or the other, but not both. If the simulacrum's obedience carries over into the clone, then it still counts as a simulacrum for purposes of the "only one simulacrum at a time" clause. If that clause is voided by the True Polymorph, then so is the obedience.

So the question is, does the evil overlord trust himself enough to have dozens of copies of himself running loose?

Ah, good question.
The Simulacrum casts the spell Simulacrum on you (the original), thereby creating a 'fresh' copy of you with all your spells (the next day).
Lather rinse repeat.
You will have all the money you need from them casting Wish for 25k.
Then, they cast True Polymorph on fresh copies later, when they copy you with all your spells.
You command each copy that they have to follow your commands, and when they are changed by True Polymorph, they keep their memories.

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[Balfore]

So, you tell the first Simulacrum to make a copy of you, and that he tells the copy to follow your commands.
The chain of command will never be broken

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