True20 and C&C comparisons please...

[Larcen]

I keep hearing about how great these two systems are.

Can people who have actually played both give us a sort of side by side comparison, neutral or otherwise?

Thank ye kindly.

 

[Turanil]

I have both games, and they are my systems of choices. They are completely different games with almost nothing in common (only that both were derived from d20, and a few common things like having levels, BAB, or the six ability scores).


1) Castles & Crusades

Looks like AD&D 1e/2e that would have been streamlined using the d20 philosophy. The usual classes (Fighter, Ranger, Paladin, Monk, Druid, etc.) but simplified, without skills and feats. Saving throws and task resolution (skills) are resolved using an ability checks system called the "SIEGE ENGINE". Magic operate as in d20/AD&D (clerics, wizards, illusionists who prepare their spells before casting). Overall the game is very rule-lite and fast to run, but lacks customization options. For example, multiclassing is not explained, and in any case would be as in AD&D, not d20.

Otherwise monsters are very simple and easy to run, not heavy stat-blocks bloated with info as in d20. Also, this game was designed with the idea that DMs should houserule it easily. There is two main rulebooks at 20$ each.


2) True20

Three classes (called roles): Warrior, Expert, Adept. As you get one feat per level, and multiclassing is without restrictions, it's easy to make very different characters almost exactly as you want them to be. BAB and saving throws are as in d20, but the major difference is with the wounding system. Characters don't have hit-points, and you don't roll weapons' damage dice. Instead, weapons and spells add a bonus to the attack roll, and then the target must make a Toughness save. If this save is failed, they get a "wounded condition" that induces a penalty to his next rolls. The more you ae hit, the harder it becomes to fight. I must say that many people find this way of handling damage a bit complicated (more than counting hit-points). Other things: ability scores don't range from 3 to 18, but only use the ability modifiers (-5 to +5); there is no XP (leveling is left at DM's whim); magic is very different, not using memorized spells and spell slots, but powers that are flexible, and can be used as much as you want so long you don't get fatigued using them. Also, there is no disctinction between arcane and divine magic.

Monsters resemble their d20 counterparts, with slighty lighter stat-blocks. There is two main rulebooks at around 30$, but also available in PDF. There is a few optional supplements.

 

[bento]

Turanil - as often as this question comes up (about once a month), we should make this a sticky!

Quick take:

C&C - mix one part old D&D with one part new D&D, bake at 350 for thirty minutes then serve. Diners frustrated with with too many options and like comfort food will love.

True20 - mix one part new D&D with 1/4 tsp Unearthed Arcana and a dash of GURPS, serve until chilled. Great for people who like to blur the lines between character classes and whine that D20 doesn't give them the right options. Also good for servers who like to create their own worlds from the ground up.

 

[Turanil]

Turanil - as often as this question comes up (about once a month), we should make this a sticky!

Indeed!! :

When True20 and C&C just aren't "OD&D" enough for you...

True 20 vs Castles and Crusades

Just to name the most recent...

 

[Larcen]

Indeed!! :

When True20 and C&C just aren't "OD&D" enough for you...

True 20 vs Castles and Crusades

Just to name the most recent...

Thanks guy. I kind of figured it was talked about before. Thanks for the links.

BTW, based on the descriptions I think I would lean towards C&C, but I dont like the sound of the Siege engine. I mean, why not just add +6 to the prime stats or their rolls? It just seems to like a stat "acting" like a higher stat, without actually being the higher stat. Anyway, just a quick observation.

 

[cnath.rm]

Thanks guy. I kind of figured it was talked about before. Thanks for the links.

BTW, based on the descriptions I think I would lean towards C&C, but I dont like the sound of the Siege engine. I mean, why not just add +6 to the prime stats or their rolls? It just seems to like a stat "acting" like a higher stat, without actually being the higher stat. Anyway, just a quick observation.

I'll have to check over the other two threads, because this was one of my questions that I never heard a decent answer for. (granted I haven't been following it for awhile and when it first came out there was a LOT of dogpiling on anyone who raised questions about how things were handled)

 

[Treebore]

Thanks guy. I kind of figured it was talked about before. Thanks for the links.

BTW, based on the descriptions I think I would lean towards C&C, but I dont like the sound of the Siege engine. I mean, why not just add +6 to the prime stats or their rolls? It just seems to like a stat "acting" like a higher stat, without actually being the higher stat. Anyway, just a quick observation.

When it comes down to actually doing it, that is exactly what you are doing. Just different ways to describe it, same result.

One thing you may not get, the +6 only comes in when you are making a save, or doing an action based on the stat, such as skills or class ability.

No +6 to hit or damage. Your stat modifier is all that gets added to those two.

So that is why you have the two base Target Numbers (TN) of 12 and 18. 6 apart.

The Base to Hit (BtH) is handled by rolling a d20, adding your BtH (which depends on your level and class, just like 3E, but progression is different) and your STR bonus (-3 up to +3, normal range) or DEX bonus, plus magic.


Saves. If a Prime you have to beat a base of 12. If it is not a Prime stat you have to beat a base of 18. You still get to add your stat bonus and class level (straight level, not BtH)

Challenge level: In the case of spells the CL is equal to the caster level. Yes, spells stay dangerous. Actually, in most cases, where your trying to perform some kind of action against someone, the CL is equal to their HD. (basically a different way to do "opposed" rolls) Plus there are guidelines on other modifiers, such as situational. Plus Traps.

Thats most of it.

 

[Dragonhelm]

I mean, why not just add +6 to the prime stats or their rolls? It just seems to like a stat "acting" like a higher stat, without actually being the higher stat. Anyway, just a quick observation.

A lot of people use the +6 as a variation. And yes, i agree abotu the higher stat analogy. I've thought the same myself.